Bad Primers or Light Primer Strikes - Winchester Super-X + Savage 10

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doowroh

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Yesterday I was shooting a box of brand new Winchester Super-X .243 Win. Not reloads, but I think this group of guys might be better at helping.
I'm shooting from an unmolested Savage 10 Predator Hunter. The bolt has never been taken apart. The rifle was purchased second hand, but reportedly unfired. I've probably put ~100 rounds down the pipe.

Throughout this rifle's life, it has had TWO failure to fire events. Both with factory Federal loads.

Yesterday I had 9 (yes NINE) failure to fires. The primers were indented on all rounds. No pop, no bang, just click. All from the same, recently purchased box of ammo, all with the same lot #. The other 11 rounds shot without concern/issue.

I haven't measured anything yet. I've just taken some pics. I called Winchester this morning - I'm waiting on a call back. Honestly, I'm tempted to tear the rounds down and replace the primers that I know work in this rifle (CCI 200). I would like to hear back from Winchester, but at the end of the day, whatever...

So, did I just get a bad lot of factory ammo? Could I have a firing pin issue causing a light primer strike? The dimples on the fired cases are more pronounced, but that could have something to do with the pressure curve, whereas the duds didn't get any pressure.

Thanks for your input.

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I have not had the bolt apart on a the new model Savage.

On the older model it is easy to take the bolt apart.

Do that.

Make sure there is no lubricant in the firing pin channel. Grease will slow things down, especially in cold weather.

On the old model the firing pin was adjustable for protrusion. You could try clicking the protrusion one click longer if your model is adjustable..
 
I have not worked with a Savage. Is there a spec for firing pin protrusion?? According to Jerry Kuhnhausen, p. 56 of "The Mauser Bolt Actions - A Shop Manual", all mausers, M91 through M98 should have protrusion of .055" to .065". "Average protrusion is .060" and is ideal in most actions". I would think Savage has to have a similar standard - min and max protrusion?? Once known, easy enough to measure yours to know if that is your issue or not. Also, may be able to slip narrow feeler gauges under straight edge to measure how deep primers are seated, if you do not have a depth micrometer. I was under the impression that primers were to be seated until the three legs of the premier are on the face of the primer pocket hole. Some variation in primer height, some variation in primer pocket depth, and deepest seated primer needs to work with shallowest firing pin protrusion. At least in military mausers, so I would hope "modern" makers have similar standard??
 
Take the bolt apart and clean it

Shoe lace trick .. google

Look like light strikes

Going through this with a 783 and a Savage ... I think mine is Factory ammo .. 2 different rifles one is worse than the other .. both new to me rifles

you can also check head space .... 308 gauges will work for the 243

A slow firing pin will can/ will set the shoulder back

What part of the gta are you in ?
 
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Top left = Winchester dud
Top right = Winchester boom
Bottom = CCI hand loaded boom

Visual inspection alone suggests that the factory Winchester duds all have primers seated deeper than both my handloads (Winchester cases + CCI 200 primers) as well as the factory Winchester rounds that went boom.

I measured primer seating depth with an el cheapo digital caliper, but I noticed that the firing pin dimple/mushroom was hard to avoid with the (somewhat bulky) depth blade, and that maybe the measurements were skewed by the chamber pressure if it "pushed" the primer cup back towards the bolt face. My "crude measurements" (yeah, air quotes) were between 0.0055"~0.006" depth on the duds, and between 0.000"~0.00005" on the ones that went boom.

I've never actually considered measuring primer depth before/after firing, so I have no real comparison data. My caliper is also likely sub-standard for the job.
 
The top left is definitely seated deeper. I suspect Winchester used small primer cups to make large primers.I suggest you dissemble that one ( Very Gently) and measure the thickness of the cup and compare it to a known large rifle primer. That should tell you whether its the primers or a firing pin issue.
Please do it carefully, taking apart a live round can be dangerous.
If you don't feel comfortable taking it apart yourself, ask a gunsmith to do it for you.
 
M1-Garand said:
Maybe Winchester accidentally used large pistol primers,which are less high,to load these rifle rounds.
Click to expand...

Pistol primers would not hold 50-60k pressure, top right is a fired round, and primer looks normal

pistol primers either would be pierced or look like a rimed case ( when pushed out)
 
I have used a lot of Large Pistol primers in 30-30 cast loads. These primers seat
deeper, since the cup is shallower than the LR primers.
But I have never had a FTF because of the deep seated primer. If firing pin is
protruding .060", there should be plenty of impact to fire those deep seated primers.
I would disassemble that bolt and clean all the oil/grease/gunk our of it and retry.
Dave.
 
It's been 24h+ and still no call/email back from Winchester.

I measured and took apart the bolt tonight. FYI the boot lace trick doesn't work with Savage bolts. :). A 1/4”‘Allen Key socket and an electric impact gun worked for me.

The firing pin was quite oily, but I wouldn't say that it was greasy. Who knows how viscous or sticky that oil gets at closer to 0°C though. The firing pin assembly occasionally binds inside the bolt when being moved/rotated by hand, so I'm going to clean everything and lube the bolt properly.

Firing pin protrusion on this rifle was 0.048". I've adjusted it closer to 0.055" now. My Savage .308 is factory set to 0.053".

If I don't hear back from Winchester by the weekend, I'm going to pull apart the worst case and take/post some measurements.
 
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I just heard from (a distributor for) Winchester in Peterborough. They've asked me to ship any other live rounds as well as all the duds back. Then Winchester will apparently cut me a cheque in USD...

Problem solved... It doesn't really give me a warm & fuzzy feeling about them though... I'm still wondering if I should pull one of the duds apart and take some measurements?...
 
... I'm still wondering if I should pull one of the duds apart and take some measurements?...[/QUOTE]

That's what I would do,measure the depth of the primer pocket,compare the size of the primer with a large rifle primer.
Easy enough to re assemble and than send it back for a refund.
 
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