Is it time for classifications in Tac Rifle?

[Gothmog]

This is mainly addressed to those who shoot TR in the lowermainland of BC, but anyone with some experience in action rifle shooting should feel free to respond.

At our last match about one third of the participants were using PCC's (pistol caliber carbines) and most finished at the high end of the scoring. I am now considering classifying participants according to firearm type given the larger number of PCC's in the event. If I do this I would add an MBR category as well.

Your opinions?

 

[Miraclejoe]

Sure, but even though I tend to be competitive in nature, I'm never going to be mad because I came in after a bunch on Storms or 9mm AR-15.

best overall, best pistol caliber rifle/carbine, best rifle, best main battle rifle, sounds like a good way of doing it to me.

Honestly, I think we would be better serve by giving you an 80 points handicap...

 

[JaysonCraig]

how many people come to this event and how many run each type of rig? it could better your event or make it kinda boring(as boring as shooting could possibly get which really, is still a lot of fun) depending on numbers. however, would it open up the possability to enter in 2 categories, and run 2 diff guns ?

 

[Gothmog]

Jayson, usually about 20 people show up for matches. This is the first time I've seen more than 2 PCC shooters participate in a match (IIRC).

You could shoot more than 1 gun I suppose as long as 2 fees were paid for shooting the stages twice.

I'm thinking that more M14 shooters might show up if there were an MBR category.

However, nothing is perfect.

I recall that at one match a shooter with an M1 Garand did very well, placing either 1st or 2nd. How do we classify the only MBR with a legal ammo capacity greater than 5?

Hmmm ...

 

[JaysonCraig]

i assumed 2 fees would need to be paid. If possible set it up to be split, and if not enough show with pistol cal's run it as 1 group ? say if there are 4 or more ? to pick an arbitrary number. that is probably a whole lot of extra work though. classes are great, if there are people to fill them.

 

[OldGravy]

The only Garand shooter I've heard of is Rob Senior, and though he did well he wasn't 'top two.'

I've never brought my M14 out to a tac rifle match because I don't want to spend $25 on match fees and $140 on ammo.

 

[Gothmog]

The only Garand shooter I've heard of is Rob Senior, and though he did well he wasn't 'top two.'

I've never brought my M14 out to a tac rifle match because I don't want to spend $25 on match fees and $140 on ammo.

Rob Senior came in 4th, but beat many AR15 shooters in that match. I assume he would have also beaten M14 shooters.

As a point of interest, Rob Jr came in first (overall, including non WW2 rifles) with an M1 Garand at our WW2 match in 2006.

Match fees are $20, not $25 ... not to be picky, but I don't need rumours about an increase circulating.

The extra $5 is for lunch, that's actually a pretty good deal considering that the same meal is $8 'down below'.

I'm not too sure about your ammo cost estimates either.

Perhaps you are using hunting grade ammo which isn't really necessary for TR.

The FMJ 308 surplus ammo available recently was around $6 or $7 per box (if you bought a case). You can still find some of it at around $10 per box. Typical matches are under 100 rounds. That looks like about $50 to me.

A guy could reload, too ... or even buy an SKS that shoots $3/box ammo

That being said I love shooting my Beretta with an ammo cost of about $20 per match.

 

[Gothmog]

i assumed 2 fees would need to be paid. If possible set it up to be split, and if not enough show with pistol cal's run it as 1 group ? say if there are 4 or more ? to pick an arbitrary number. that is probably a whole lot of extra work though. classes are great, if there are people to fill them.

Exactly Jayson. That is more or less the center of my question: are we finally at the point where PCC's have become a significant segment of the guns used in matches?

Up until now, AR15's were the standard, without question. How far will this recent trend go, I wonder, and should anything be done to ensure the use of AR15's and other 556's at matches? I like seeing a variety of guns at matches, so would like to find a way to encourage that.

 

[GSmurf1234]

What MiracleJoe said - including the 80 pt handicap.

I suspect some creative stage design would negate the 'advantage' of the 10 round pistol calibers in either case - some steel (as much as I detest the stuff) at 60 to 80 yards plus would give them a good run for thier money (and send most of us to the eye doctor Monday morn as well) - or odd manditory reload to spice things up

 

[OldGravy]

Rob Senior came in 4th, but beat many AR15 shooters in that match. I assume he would have also beaten M14 shooters.

As a point of interest, Rob Jr came in first (overall, including non WW2 rifles) with an M1 Garand at our WW2 match in 2006.

Yeah, I really enjoyed watching Rob Sr. shoot the Garand -- I was only spectating that day but I learned quite a bit.

Match fees are $20, not $25 ... not to be picky, but I don't need rumours about an increase circulating.

Oops. My bad!

The FMJ 308 surplus ammo available recently was around $6 or $7 per box (if you bought a case). You can still find some of it at around $10 per box. Typical matches are under 100 rounds. That looks like about $50 to me.

I am using commercial ammo, which given the recent price increases adds up to about a buck a round. There is no surplus available anywhere that I've found, and the only $10 a box deal I've ever heard of is from someone back East. In fact, I can't even find .308 on big-box store shelves such as Cambodian Tire. My local gun stores are selling 20-rd boxes for about $18 a box.

Ammo cost is the limiting factor in my participation in tac rifle. Ever since I came out to one of the spring events I've wanted to do it, but time and $$ have prevented that.

To get back on topic, there is really very little chance that someone such as myself (who is new, has little to no gear and NO training) would be competitive against you Storm guys -- so perhaps a classification into "expert" and "newbie" is more appropriate than rifle calibre since, as you've noted, skill can trump calibre?

 

[G37]

I wish I made it... was and still am sick.

At our last match about one third of the participants were using PCC's (pistol caliber carbines) and most finished at the high end of the scoring.

Anyway, could this phenomenon be due to the fact that 10rnd magazines are so much better than 5 round magazines/stripper clips?

I really wish I made it 'cause I'd have had the AR180B with 10rnd mags to see where I came in.
I am ok with whatever is decided upon... but it'll mean I need to buy a Storm again *which I am not opposed to.

~Cheers

 

[Gothmog]

We had one AR15 shooter with 10 round mags at the match and that was MiracleJoe. Hopefully, more AR shooters will bring 10 rounders as time goes. We do allow shooters with 5 rounders to start with the mag in the rifle, loaded while 10 rounders start out of the gun, but in hand. Not perfect, but it usually means a difference of only one mag change. Tactical reloads can help, too ...

 

[unibomber]

I think classes are a good idea but if there was not ,I would still shoot my CQB anyway! with classes it would give other rifles a chance to win a category of there own.
I still like to see were I stand in the whole group regardless of type of rifle so I can focus on were I need to improve to become more efficient!
I think Kiwimatt has demonstrated that using one rifle ( SKS) and becoming proficient over time & not messing with what works shows that you can do VERY well! I remember when he started out he did not do to good for awhile but now he beats a LOT of guys using the best of everything!
Anyway classifications would be great and might attract more shooters ,So I am for it ,But I would shoot the match's ethier way

 

[JaysonCraig]

We had one AR15 shooter with 10 round mags at the match and that was MiracleJoe. Hopefully, more AR shooters will bring 10 rounders as time goes. We do allow shooters with 5 rounders to start with the mag in the rifle, loaded while 10 rounders start out of the gun, but in hand. Not perfect, but it usually means a difference of only one mag change. Tactical reloads can help, too ...

i have 3-10 rounders comming

 

[P0WERWAGON]

i feel the rule of semi-auto only should be enforced. bolt actions should stay at the WWII matches.

 

[Gothmog]

i feel the rule of semi-auto only should be enforced. bolt actions should stay at the WWII matches.

Just curious, but why?

It's not like they dominate the field or anything and it allows some guys to shoot who might not otherwise be able to join us.

 

[P0WERWAGON]

it's like going to a drag race. everyone shows up with a fast car, except for the guy with the model 'A'. sure he's racing, but not exactly the what drag racing is for.

 

[Gothmog]

it's like going to a drag race. everyone shows up with a fast car, except for the guy with the model 'A'. sure he's racing, but not exactly the what drag racing is for.

That is an interesting view, although I'm not sure I see any harm caused by having bolt actions in a match, any more than using a revolver in IPSC.

What is your view on the subject of this thread? Different classes of rifles, yes or no? If so, what should the categories consist of?

 

[sparrow]

Gothmog, I believe that reclassifying at this time is not necessary. There simply is not enough attendance to justify a step that would further complicate and slow the day down. I also think that coming in the top of a category that has two shooters in it is in no way better than coming in 10th. Once the 10 round magazines take off any real advantage will be negated. On the subject of bolt guns I object on principle but really what does it matter, perhaps a name change to Tactical Conditions Shooting would better reflect the nature of the match it self and not the equipment used. JMO.

 

[Gothmog]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for the input.

Your point about being at the top of a small category is well taken, and is probably one of the main reasons classifying rifles has yet to be done in spite of 4 years of this event.

I don't really see any delays in the match due to rifle classes, its a matter of a minute or two at the end of the match when scores are tabulated to sort score sheets into the correct piles. How do you see a classification system slowing the match down? Perhaps we have a different concept in mind ...

I don't believe that the 10 round magazines are all that critical, from what I've seen at the last 2 matches. They are an advantage, but cetainly won't make up for a malf'ing gun or a poor run. My estimate is that between 2 and 5 seconds per change (depending on how fast you are) is lost and we've tried to keep the difference in changes between 5 and 10 round systems to 1 or 2 per stage. In a 4 stage match then, assuming 6 extra changes for the 5 round mags one might guess that they cost you 12 to 30 seconds on your score.

Certainly I expected more participants to use 10 rounders than have actually done so to date, and as you suggest, their presence should narrow the gap somewhat.

The main reason that I am once again considering classifying rifles is due to the increased presence of PCC's at events. I believe there were 6 entries of 16 at the last match, and I expect a couple more at the next. I am also interested in ensuring that participants feel that there is a reasonably level playing field at matches, even if we give no prizes for top spot. And just as a matter of personal preference, I like seeing a variety of arms at a match and I think it would be great if the choice of firearm was minimized as a factor in placement in the event.

I have not totally given up on your earlier suggestion of a 'tactical' vs 'sporting' protocol in matches, but this idea was never fully fleshed out IIRC. If it could be implemented without resulting in major delays or difficulty in judging (objective rather than subjective measures) then that might answer many of the issues as well.

I did like the earlier suggestion of announcing 'best overall', 'best PCC', 'best rifle', 'best MBR' although as you point out, being first in a group of one is hardly an earth shattering result.