Gender Ratios in the Bush! Deer.

WhelanLad

WhelanLad

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Guys of CGN my fellow Bushmen..
In the Aus hunting commnity i have put a Call out for hunters and especially the Hound hunting mob to send me over some Figures in regards to the Total deer 'killed' and of those the Male and Female numbers to as best of their average as they can give for the past 5 seasons......

Why would You need that info? one would ask..

Well I want to do a bit of a research article in regards to the Ratios of DEER (Sambar) in Victoria- after ive personally noted a huge number of Hinds in the recent Burn wake of the Bushfire devestation in my area.

one particular crew has shot 550 last year, 370 females, 180 males and of those males only 40 were over a average 'trophy' benchmark of 27 inches- largest 33 inches.




as i reach out more, numbers are rolling in, all fairly similiarly when you ratio it down....

Does anyone on here have a bit of a silent obsession with populations and managment discussion in regards to say the next 5 years on a broad scale for Aus and the Deer...
as we speak they were on the verge of being baited like NZ with 1080- helicopter trial cull prooved fairly dismal as the bush doesnt allow- hounds arnt allowed in national parks but are proberly one of the best methods of lowering isolated pokets.

lots to discuss but im sure someone whos interest has peaked by now would be on the same page or have their opinons already...



I want to come across to the Average Joe Hunter, to think twice about their future actions in regard to the Deer and keeping them lower in population, also to keep some stags to grow a bit older an not succomb to so many meat hunters whilst in velvet etc.
i believe i can get the message across with some facts and figures, il word it right enough to hit home..

but whats all of this mean?


i feel females breed.... :stirthepot2: , shooting a 3.5 year old Stag for its backstraps or 2 legs doesnt help the herd, it takes away a trophy potential- for example say-
but if the hunter keeps going the next ridge, he may find a hind to shoot, not only gain meat but lower (2) deer this year. possibly pregnant whatever.

anyone wanna drop in?
love to chat

Cheers
Hilldog / WL / Rhys
 
an i say the deer on verge of posoning in regards to over populated farm fringe / farm bordering NP / apparent Alpine ecosystem threat (bs) / theres quite a few sambar around now days.

BUT the bushfires has covered ALOT of their ground an no doubt about it, Lowered alot for Us, For now...


Also should mention there is a fairly happening Commercial meat harvest on private property in select places.


Has anyone ever heard of Does/Hinds Chosing to birth Female deer more often than Male, somewhat similiar as to the Rat when its threatened, they breed up?
 
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I live in a Canadian province that encourages the shooting of female deer. Special seasons, extra tags, and either ### seasons are normal. We have a ratio of three or four does to each buck ( guessing, not scientific) I think that's because many of the bucks are selectively harvested by hunters who only shoot bucks, or big bucks, and don't really hunt for meat as their primary motivation. Here, all the meat must be taken home, not just "backstraps or a few legs". Quite a different situation. Regarding your main question, I am a university trained agrologist specializing in animal science. I can assure you that deer are not capable of selectively breeding to produce more females while under stress. ### ratios at breeding are 1:1. There are a few reasons why males may have a higher mortality rate later, so lower numbers in an adult population - but not because of breeding / birth ratios.
 
Longwalker said:
I live in a Canadian province that encourages the shooting of female deer. Special seasons, extra tags, and either ### seasons are normal. We have a ratio of three or four does to each buck ( guessing, not scientific) I think that's because many of the bucks are selectively harvested by hunters who only shoot bucks, or big bucks, and don't really hunt for meat as their primary motivation. Here, all the meat must be taken home, not just "backstraps or a few legs". Quite a different situation. Regarding your main question, I am a university trained agrologist specializing in animal science. I can assure you that deer are not capable of selectively breeding to produce more females while under stress. ### ratios at breeding are 1:1. There are a few reasons why males may have a higher mortality rate later, so lower numbers in an adult population - but not because of breeding / birth ratios.
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We needa Talk.
i will shoot you another PM today-ish sometime, no rush on replie. exchange email first if you dont mind?
 
Longwalker said:
I live in a Canadian province that encourages the shooting of female deer. Special seasons, extra tags, and either ### seasons are normal. We have a ratio of three or four does to each buck ( guessing, not scientific) I think that's because many of the bucks are selectively harvested by hunters who only shoot bucks, or big bucks, and don't really hunt for meat as their primary motivation. Here, all the meat must be taken home, not just "backstraps or a few legs". Quite a different situation. Regarding your main question, I am a university trained agrologist specializing in animal science. I can assure you that deer are not capable of selectively breeding to produce more females while under stress. ### ratios at breeding are 1:1. There are a few reasons why males may have a higher mortality rate later, so lower numbers in an adult population - but not because of breeding / birth ratios.
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Your INBOX is full mate- i didnt recieve a PM either!?

also- i lost all i was goin to write to you, shoot me your email mate-Thanks!
 
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From the Saskatchewan hunting seasons in the fall 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 I have compiled the following observational data from 37 total hunting trips while hunting for whitetail deer in an open season. Moose, mule deer and elk were draw season only in the area. Individual observations of game species are classified into fawns/calves (young of the year), does/cows (females of the species, but may include yearling bucks where antlers were not observable ie., yearlings), and bucks/bulls (which include immature (animal under 3.5 years of age for deer and 4.5 yrs for moose or elk) & mature individuals (which will mean a 3.5 year old animal or older for deer and 4.5 yrs old for moose and elk). Observations do not include any species saw while driving to the location or driving back home from the hunting location. Only observations logged were in the field/bush while hunting on foot. Locations include provincial pastures and fish and wildlife lands. No pre season scouting was included here although I keep records as well.

37 total trips. 177 animals seen. Average animals seen per trip 4.8
Moose calf: 8; cows: 9; bulls: 5 (2 mature) ### ratio cow/bull: 1.6.
Mule deer fawn: 14; doe: 30; buck: 19 (9 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 1.6
White tailed deer fawn: 30; doe: 36; buck: 18 (3 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 2
Elk cow: 7; bull: 1 (mature)

As you can see from the limited data the ### ratio is closer to 50/50 for moose and mule deer than white tailed deer. This is because having a draw season for moose and mule deer means that each ### has a quota and set number or tags for a given zone, which serves as a more precise tool for managing wildlife than simply having an open season like whitetail which has an unlimited amount of tags and a hunter can harvest either a doe or buck in which ever zone they choose. Since draw tags are relatively scarce, hunters prefer to shoot older more mature deer rather than young bucks thus leading to older deer on average and draw seasons also have the effect of producing a ### ratio closer to 50/50 which more closely approximates healthy population characteristics. Another effect of draw and quotas is that populations remain more stable as it is more difficult for hunters to over hunt a species in a given area (unless the quota is too high) thus preserving a higher allowable harvest in the future as well as giving hunters the added bonus of being able to be more selective, for example passing on deer that are immature.
 
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umchorn2 said:
From the Saskatchewan hunting seasons in the fall 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 I have compiled the following observational data from 37 total hunting trips while hunting for whitetail deer in an open season. Moose, mule deer and elk were draw season only in the area. Individual observations of game species are classified into fawns/calves (young of the year), does/cows (females of the species, but may include yearling bucks where antlers were not observable ie., yearlings), and bucks/bulls (which include immature (animal under 3.5 years of age for deer and 4.5 yrs for moose or elk) & mature individuals (which will mean a 3.5 year old animal or older for deer and 4.5 yrs old for moose and elk). Observations do not include any species saw while driving to the location or driving back home from the hunting location. Only observations logged were in the field/bush while hunting on foot. Locations include provincial pastures and fish and wildlife lands. No pre season scouting was included here although I keep records as well.

37 total trips. 177 animals seen. Average animals seen per trip 4.8
Moose calf: 8; cows: 9; bulls: 5 (2 mature) ### ratio cow/bull: 1.6.
Mule deer fawn: 14; doe: 30; buck: 19 (9 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 1.6
White tailed deer fawn: 30; doe: 36; buck: 18 (3 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 2
Elk cow: 7; bull: 1 (mature)

As you can see from the limited data the ### ratio is closer to 50/50 for moose and mule deer than white tailed deer. This is because having a draw season for moose and mule deer means that each ### has a quota and set number or tags for a given zone, which serves as a more precise tool for managing wildlife than simply having an open season like whitetail which has an unlimited amount of tags and a hunter can harvest either a doe or buck in which ever zone they choose. Since draw tags are relatively scarce, hunters prefer to shoot older more mature deer rather than young bucks thus leading to older deer on average and draw seasons also have the effect of producing a ### ratio closer to 50/50 which more closely approximates healthy population characteristics. Another effect of draw and quotas is that populations remain more stable as it is more difficult for hunters to over hunt a species in a given area (unless the quota is too high) thus preserving a higher allowable harvest in the future as well as giving hunters the added bonus of being able to be more selective, for example passing on deer that are immature.
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Amazing information. Thanks!
You've had some good seasons brother

ps- what is the ratio for the white tail, it just says 2?
 
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Whelenlad, i fixed my inbox, thanks for the notice! re: ratios observed above. Thanks for supplying real data umchorn2! Your whitetail data matches my experience - 66 does and fawns ( = "antlerless" deer ) to 18 bucks is a ratio of 3.7 antlerless deer : 1 buck deer
 
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umchorn2 said:
From the Saskatchewan hunting seasons in the fall 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 I have compiled the following observational data from 37 total hunting trips while hunting for whitetail deer in an open season. Moose, mule deer and elk were draw season only in the area. Individual observations of game species are classified into fawns/calves (young of the year), does/cows (females of the species, but may include yearling bucks where antlers were not observable ie., yearlings), and bucks/bulls (which include immature (animal under 3.5 years of age for deer and 4.5 yrs for moose or elk) & mature individuals (which will mean a 3.5 year old animal or older for deer and 4.5 yrs old for moose and elk). Observations do not include any species saw while driving to the location or driving back home from the hunting location. Only observations logged were in the field/bush while hunting on foot. Locations include provincial pastures and fish and wildlife lands. No pre season scouting was included here although I keep records as well.

37 total trips. 177 animals seen. Average animals seen per trip 4.8
Moose calf: 8; cows: 9; bulls: 5 (2 mature) ### ratio cow/bull: 1.6.
Mule deer fawn: 14; doe: 30; buck: 19 (9 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 1.6
White tailed deer fawn: 30; doe: 36; buck: 18 (3 mature). ### ratio doe/buck: 2
Elk cow: 7; bull: 1 (mature)

As you can see from the limited data the ### ratio is closer to 50/50 for moose and mule deer than white tailed deer. This is because having a draw season for moose and mule deer means that each ### has a quota and set number or tags for a given zone, which serves as a more precise tool for managing wildlife than simply having an open season like whitetail which has an unlimited amount of tags and a hunter can harvest either a doe or buck in which ever zone they choose. Since draw tags are relatively scarce, hunters prefer to shoot older more mature deer rather than young bucks thus leading to older deer on average and draw seasons also have the effect of producing a ### ratio closer to 50/50 which more closely approximates healthy population characteristics. Another effect of draw and quotas is that populations remain more stable as it is more difficult for hunters to over hunt a species in a given area (unless the quota is too high) thus preserving a higher allowable harvest in the future as well as giving hunters the added bonus of being able to be more selective, for example passing on deer that are immature.
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Very interesting data. Thanks a million for taking the time to keep such stats. Personally, I'm too lazy :)

Here in Ontario, it's antler/antlerless, by draw. You are automatically allowed antlered, and apply for antlerless. On years/areas with healthy populations, you are pretty much "guaranteed" an antlerless tag, and on years with excess populations, you may buy additional tags. On tough years, it's 2 or 3 buck tags per doe tag. Personally, I'd have thought the ratio was 5-6 does/buck, based on what I see. It is not unusual to see dozens of does in fields, but seldom will you see a buck, and where I hunt (in bush, not farm land), I see around 4 does for each buck.
 
Thanks papaclaude,
its interesting the way your tags go, on tough years- they will give more tags for bucks, thus to me indicates, the females breed an having the X amount of 'stock' now, issueing more buck tags come post hunting season / or Rut , these Stock will have bred with Bucks, because bucks will cover big miles to mate and thus not hampering the population.


sound about ok?

so if it were my "stock" and i wanted to lower the population somewhat significantly, i should be issueing more doe tags, and maybe selective buck tags in some form of say like 'mature tags' and less to a degree- spike tags

- by me issueing less spike tags - gives some thought to the future of the male population? limited mature tags because big bucks are hard to come by anyway- and realistic the illegal hunting wil be targetting big bucks to throw the ratio out a bit..


true?
 
Where I hunt (the foothills of western alberta, thick forest) I would say I see an equal amount of bucks and does. This is both seeing them first hand while hunting and on trail cameras.

We should try to find the ratio of apex predators (cougars, wolves, bears) to prey species, that would be a fun one where I hunt!
 
WhelanLad said:
Thanks papaclaude,
its interesting the way your tags go, on tough years- they will give more tags for bucks, thus to me indicates, the females breed an having the X amount of 'stock' now, issueing more buck tags come post hunting season / or Rut , these Stock will have bred with Bucks, because bucks will cover big miles to mate and thus not hampering the population.


sound about ok?

so if it were my "stock" and i wanted to lower the population somewhat significantly, i should be issueing more doe tags, and maybe selective buck tags in some form of say like 'mature tags' and less to a degree- spike tags

- by me issueing less spike tags - gives some thought to the future of the male population? limited mature tags because big bucks are hard to come by anyway- and realistic the illegal hunting wil be targetting big bucks to throw the ratio out a bit..


true?
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I could very well be wrong, but I seem to remember that the logic behind the tag ratios is that one buck (lucky him) can service numerous does. Either way, it seems to be working. We had a few very tough winters that caused a drastic reduction in population (some guys blamed it on coyotes, but personally, I don't believe it - coyotes have been around for millions of years, and deer do very well). I figure it was either the winter that caused the downturn, or illness set in because the populations were so high. Either way, they cut the number of tags for 5 or 6 years, but now the numbers are coming back up - not as high as they were 10 years or so ago, but going up consistently.Most of the people I know around here see a lot more does than bucks. Come to think of it, even on my game cams I see way more does than bucks.
 
Papaclaude said:
I could very well be wrong, but I seem to remember that the logic behind the tag ratios is that one buck (lucky him) can service numerous does. Either way, it seems to be working. We had a few very tough winters that caused a drastic reduction in population (some guys blamed it on coyotes, but personally, I don't believe it - coyotes have been around for millions of years, and deer do very well). I figure it was either the winter that caused the downturn, or illness set in because the populations were so high. Either way, they cut the number of tags for 5 or 6 years, but now the numbers are coming back up - not as high as they were 10 years or so ago, but going up consistently.Most of the people I know around here see a lot more does than bucks. Come to think of it, even on my game cams I see way more does than bucks.
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Where I hunt in SWO, roughly 65% of the allocated antlerless tag quota are issued. It’s been that way the entire time I have hunted that particular WMU (7 years now I think?). This season is the first in 3 seasons where we even got bucks on cam. One 2x3 and one 3x3. That’s running 5-7 cams on about 200 acres (which includes a river that forks halfway through and 50 acres of crop land). Always plenty of signs of them though.
Thinking back, and if I had to guess... I would say that between my live sightings on the property and the ones on cam, factoring in the ones I know I recognize and see multiple times, it is probably a 5-1 doe to buck ratio.
 
verminaard said:
Where I hunt in SWO, roughly 65% of the allocated antlerless tag quota are issued. It’s been that way the entire time I have hunted that particular WMU (7 years now I think?). This season is the first in 3 seasons where we even got bucks on cam. One 2x3 and one 3x3. That’s running 5-7 cams on about 200 acres (which includes a river that forks halfway through and 50 acres of crop land). Always plenty of signs of them though.
Thinking back, and if I had to guess... I would say that between my live sightings on the property and the ones on cam, factoring in the ones I know I recognize and see multiple times, it is probably a 5-1 doe to buck ratio.
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Pretty close to what I think.
 
You see down under we dont have the natural predators which keep the herd in check, along with the thick bush , it homes populations of deer, mostly hinds which can breed an live under heavy cover and push out nocturnally if need onto farmland.

thats where private spotlighting is legal and can work well. even indescriminent shooting would yeild a higher hind ration.
also a good place for hound hunting set ups.


5:1 6:1 seems like a fairly normal Average in High Female sighting/Camera evident areas and im sure the game wardens fact sheet shows that with tags and their own data? hence they would be tryin to manage those bucks not only for Trophy, but also futures ... aswell as letting the hind tags out to keep the population within reason.


We have nothing like this, its not even a thought.... game managment in Australia is, Shoot ones with #### antlers. period.

loving the discussion... keep feeding it
 
WhelanLad said:
You see down under we dont have the natural predators which keep the herd in check, along with the thick bush , it homes populations of deer, mostly hinds which can breed an live under heavy cover and push out nocturnally if need onto farmland.

thats where private spotlighting is legal and can work well. even indescriminent shooting would yeild a higher hind ration.
also a good place for hound hunting set ups.


5:1 6:1 seems like a fairly normal Average in High Female sighting/Camera evident areas and im sure the game wardens fact sheet shows that with tags and their own data? hence they would be tryin to manage those bucks not only for Trophy, but also futures ... aswell as letting the hind tags out to keep the population within reason.


We have nothing like this, its not even a thought.... game managment in Australia is, Shoot ones with #### antlers. period.

loving the discussion... keep feeding it
Click to expand...

For the most part in Ontario, the bucks aren’t really managed for quota... outside of season. Your first tag is good for an antlered deer in any WMU during an open season.
So I apply for an antlerless tag in my WMU. If I get one, I can harvest an antlerless in my WMU, or an antlered in any WMU (during an open season). If I don’t get an antlerless tag, the tag I get is still good for an antlered in any WMU (during an open season). If I don’t apply for the antlerless draw, I just pay the $45 bucks and get a tag that is good for an antlered in any WMU (during an open season).
The seasons themselves will vary depending on the WMU.
Around here deer season starts in October, but it has components to it.
Bow hunting starts in October and runs to the first week in November. That week bow hunting is off, and there is a controlled hunt. Once the week of controlled hunt is done, bow season starts again. That lasts to the first week in December, at which point there is another controlled hunt for a week. When that week is done, bow season starts again and runs through December 31.
The controlled hunts are shotgun/muzzle loader/black powder only hunts. Which is allowed, that will vary by WMU. There is no rifle hunting. You apply for one of the two (or three in some cases) controlled hunts in a particular WMU. If you get drawn, you can hunt with a firearm that week. If you don’t get drawn you don’t hunt that week in that WMU.
 
verminaard said:
For the most part in Ontario, the bucks aren’t really managed for quota... outside of season. Your first tag is good for an antlered deer in any WMU during an open season.
So I apply for an antlerless tag in my WMU. If I get one, I can harvest an antlerless in my WMU, or an antlered in any WMU (during an open season). If I don’t get an antlerless tag, the tag I get is still good for an antlered in any WMU (during an open season). If I don’t apply for the antlerless draw, I just pay the $45 bucks and get a tag that is good for an antlered in any WMU (during an open season).
The seasons themselves will vary depending on the WMU.
Around here deer season starts in October, but it has components to it.
Bow hunting starts in October and runs to the first week in November. That week bow hunting is off, and there is a controlled hunt. Once the week of controlled hunt is done, bow season starts again. That lasts to the first week in December, at which point there is another controlled hunt for a week. When that week is done, bow season starts again and runs through December 31.
The controlled hunts are shotgun/muzzle loader/black powder only hunts. Which is allowed, that will vary by WMU. There is no rifle hunting. You apply for one of the two (or three in some cases) controlled hunts in a particular WMU. If you get drawn, you can hunt with a firearm that week. If you don’t get drawn you don’t hunt that week in that WMU.
Click to expand...

wow, i couldnt live lol
 
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