.22 lr ELR ammo... this is going to be interesting.

Sierra has some data on their bullet page. Bottom line.. pointy bullets really dont do a heck of a lot in subsonic speeds. And you are still going at really low velocity

Improving drop may be tangible but that is the one variable we know how to control Drift is the big issue... as is bullet stability

I look forward to seeing how these bullets evolve and the tech that is created to support. Of course, the final ammo costs

I don't see reloading at home being a big thing anytime soon.

Jerry
 
Firas said:
Very thorough analysis and I couldn't agree more with what you see as being possible options for true ELR .22lr ammo.

Yes....that first day was quite the experience!
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To be good in the wind, you have to practise in the wind. Any improvement in wind drift by a new gen bullet is peanuts vs the feet we had to hold off target. With rimfire, if you get the wind speed wrong, no bullet is going to help.

If the basic lead match bullets BC is around 0.12... and the new gen bullet is around 0.2, look at the predicted drift for each mph at 200 to 300.

Maybe it will save you a mil... but when you need to adjust 4 to 8 mils between gusts, you need to know your numbers... and when you know your numbers, you need a set up that is going to track reliably and predictably.

Any new gen bullet will need to prove that under alot of shooting and conditions. That will be a big investment in development costs.

Jerry
 
If someone were to put the same effort into reloading .22LR as is done in cast bullet competition these problems can be overcome. But the effort wouldn't be worth it, as the same effort can be put into other cartridges with much better results. The bullet problem is easy, custom molds and cast your own. Heeled or stop ring bullets, custom noses etc are not a problem. Custom alloys with tightly controlled lead/tin mixtures are not a problem. Lube is not a problem. There are a number of formulations out there that work extremely well for cast bullets at reasonable velocities.

I personally wouldn't bother though. For the same effort I can shoot my .32-40 cast bullet target rifle and it costs 1/2 the price of match grade .22LR ammo. It will give much better accuracy at distance.

Chris.
 
Has anyone considered eliminating the priming compound? A rebuilt speacialized case could have a primer offset against the rim. Simply knock out the primer and and add a new one. Loading them youd have to be aware of the primers orientation is all. Its been done withother rimfires to get antiques back to shooting. I had several 44 rimfires so converted but lost them in the move
Rcc brass has several rimfires so converted in stock now.
Crimp a modern bullet inside the case and use a tighter bore it should work as it headspaces off the rim. They said theyd use industry standard twist not industry standard bore.

Ive often thought about having reloadable brass casings made this way so i can justify buying some of the sweet old stevens 25 rimfires and actually use them

They offered an invitation to ammo companies not just the few rimfire manufactures but then again i cpuld be way off track
 
grauhanen said:
There are lots of choices available? Can you give some further details?
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I reloaded these. .223 on the left and 17 Rem Fireball on the right. Hornady V-Max bullets.

u9Q49uih.jpg
 
Mystic Precision said:
Sierra has some data on their bullet page. Bottom line.. pointy bullets really dont do a heck of a lot in subsonic speeds. And you are still going at really low velocity

Improving drop may be tangible but that is the one variable we know how to control Drift is the big issue... as is bullet stability

Jerry
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Yeah pointy bullets are less than optimal. Elliptical nosed flat based bullets are pretty close to optimal for long range transonic shooting. I imagine that trying to push the .22LR to longer distances would involve a similar bullet design. The hard part would probably be getting really tight velocity SD's. Even the best .22LR bullet will have such a low BC that it'll be affected like crazy by conditions.

One interesting note, a bullet like an elliptical, flat base is not modeled well by the G1 curve at low speeds. In BPTR long range we find that our bullets perform better than predicted as the velocity slows down.

It would be an interesting thing to see if someone could get significant improvements, but I'll wait on the sidelines :)

Chris.
 
Mystic Precision said:
If we had access to quality primed brass, dies and suitable powder, bullets will not be an issue

Plenty to choose from....

Jerry
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grauhanen said:
There are lots of choices available? Can you give some further details?
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KDX said:
I reloaded these. .223 on the left and 17 Rem Fireball on the right. Hornady V-Max bullets.

u9Q49uih.jpg
Click to expand...



Very nice. You're showing readers this because you believe the reloaded ammo in the picture proves that there are a lot of suitable CF bullets available for reloading with .22LR brass?
 
The video taken at SHOT says the bullets will be "solid copper bullets", some may have polymer tips with weights not yet determined for any of the three twists they plan to accommodate. The plan is also to have "fully loaded ammo" -- "ready to go" -- reloading not necessary. They claim the ammo will be ready to go by spring.

Copper is lighter than lead, harder too.
 
grauhanen said:
Very nice. You're showing readers this because you believe the reloaded ammo in the picture proves that there are a lot of suitable CF bullets available for reloading with .22LR brass?
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I posted that to show there are quality 20 grain bullets available in .17cal. I have no doubt that .22cal bullets for rimfire could be made if a company wanted to. I'm sure that it's only a matter of time before primed .22cal brass and dies are made available also. If there is a market, someone will make the product available.
 
KDX said:
I posted that to show there are quality 20 grain bullets available in .17cal. I have no doubt that .22cal bullets for rimfire could be made if a company wanted to. I'm sure that it's only a matter of time before primed .22cal brass and dies are made available also. If there is a market, someone will make the product available.
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Indeed. It's obvious that there is no question about the availability of 20 grain bullets in .17cal. After all, there's a lot of 17HMR ammo with such bullets, not to mention 17MII and 17WSm and the various centerfire 17's. (For more on the latter see h t t p s://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/17caliber/.) And .22 caliber centerfire bullets are plentiful in variety too. No one doubted that.

The point is that, except for the bullets made for factory .22LR ammo, there aren't any bullets currently being made that are suitable for .22LR reloading. Of course, such bullets could be made "if a company wanted to" -- but they are not. The continuing absence of serious reloading .22LR equipment -- even after the .22LR ammo "shortage" especially in the US four or five years ago, for whatever reason -- speaks to the impracticality of reloading such ammo at home. Even the Cutting Edge bullets are intended to be sold only as a component of "ready-to-go ammo".

But even if such equipment were to suddenly appear along with suitable bullets and appropriate powder (current available propellants are not appropriate) it is impossible to overlook the technical difficulties of producing consistent ammo, difficulties which are only pointed at in the American Rifleman article about rimfire ammo referred to above in post #39. It may be an amusing pastime to imagine reloading .22LR ammo for long range accuracy, but to produce ammo at home that has characteristics of good match ammo may be a little more than fanciful. No "magic bullet" -- no matter its weight, BC or SC -- will do away with the challenges of producing good .22LR ammo, especially when it comes to long range accuracy.
 
grauhanen said:
The video taken at SHOT says the bullets will be "solid copper bullets", some may have polymer tips with weights not yet determined for any of the three twists they plan to accommodate. The plan is also to have "fully loaded ammo" -- "ready to go" -- reloading not necessary. They claim the ammo will be ready to go by spring.

Copper is lighter than lead, harder too.
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There actually are hollow points made out of just copper for 22LR -- CCI Copper-22. The problem with the 21 grain Copper-22 is that it sucks when flying anything further than 25 yards, because it is so light and goes from 1850fps to transonic by 50 yards. I'm curious how heavy they have to make this bullet, as I would assume they have to be heavier than a 40g LRN to be a better choice for ELR.
 
If a guy could get primed brass at a reasonable a cost , cheap enough to throw away.. then there would be no brass prep or cleaning... I'm in... I just want to load and shoot anyhow.... brass prep is becoming a drag !!.!!..
IN A rimfire PERFECT WORLD ... lol ...
 
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grauhanen said:
Indeed. It's obvious that there is no question about the availability of 20 grain bullets in .17cal. After all, there's a lot of 17HMR ammo with such bullets, not to mention 17MII and 17WSm and the various centerfire 17's. (For more on the latter see h t t p s://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/17caliber/.) And .22 caliber centerfire bullets are plentiful in variety too. No one doubted that.

The point is that, except for the bullets made for factory .22LR ammo, there aren't any bullets currently being made that are suitable for .22LR reloading. Of course, such bullets could be made "if a company wanted to" -- but they are not. The continuing absence of serious reloading .22LR equipment -- even after the .22LR ammo "shortage" especially in the US four or five years ago, for whatever reason -- speaks to the impracticality of reloading such ammo at home. Even the Cutting Edge bullets are intended to be sold only as a component of "ready-to-go ammo".

But even if such equipment were to suddenly appear along with suitable bullets and appropriate powder (current available propellants are not appropriate) it is impossible to overlook the technical difficulties of producing consistent ammo, difficulties which are only pointed at in the American Rifleman article about rimfire ammo referred to above in post #39. It may be an amusing pastime to imagine reloading .22LR ammo for long range accuracy, but to produce ammo at home that has characteristics of good match ammo may be a little more than fanciful. No "magic bullet" -- no matter its weight, BC or SC -- will do away with the challenges of producing good .22LR ammo, especially when it comes to long range accuracy.
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You are such a stick in the mud. Where is your sense of adventure? I would reload for .22cal rim fire if I could get the components to make quality ammo. Winter sucks and it would be something to kill time.
 
KDX said:
You are such a stick in the mud. Where is your sense of adventure? I would reload for .22cal rim fire if I could get the components to make quality ammo. Winter sucks and it would be something to kill time.
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A lot of people would reload for .22LR if it was practical and could produce .22LR ammo that was even nearly match quality. The trouble is that it's not feasible. Posts that imply otherwise may do a disservice to those who are looking for easy solutions to rimfire accuracy, especially at long range. Just look at the misplaced excitement generated in this thread.
 
KDX said:
I posted that to show there are quality 20 grain bullets available in .17cal. I have no doubt that .22cal bullets for rimfire could be made if a company wanted to. I'm sure that it's only a matter of time before primed .22cal brass and dies are made available also. If there is a market, someone will make the product available.
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KDX yt chan logcabinlooms has done work on reloading .22LR. Some of his oldest vids are quite interesting and detailed natural and human histories of the Dakotas, Rupert's Land, & the Red River Settlement. All the best.He's a nice chap salt of the earth type which I think you might enjoy.

The problem with outside lubricated rounds is the crimp obviously. I think you are on your own wrt. lashing up a reliable crimping device.
 
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The issue I see with all of this, and why (after spending a bunch of time considering this a few years ago) I didn't pursue it further was this.

1. .22 LR Cartridges function at a relatively low pressure point due to the thin wall cases necessary for Rimfire to work.

2. Forces required to engrave a copper jacket vs a lead bullet in a rifled barrel are considerably higher.

So, getting a jacketed (or solid) .22 copper round to fire needs more chamber pressure - something that is not easily accommodated by a rimfire casing.

You cannot easily increase the thickness of a rimfire casing to enable higher pressures without reducing the reliability due to the required sensitivity.

I admit, I like the idea - a .22 rimfire with at least some of the ballistics of a centerfire? Great! Problem is - it's a very tough balancing act.

The .17 HM2 and .17HMR were the closest things to success in terms of this, but their performance dropped off considerably past 100 meters.

NS
 
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