LOVELY WINCHESTER P 14 MK1...with pics....need advice!!!

[bros]

I recently added one to the family and I think it's a lovely rifle....too bad I couldn't take a picture of the bore.....it's about as close to perfect as it gets!!!

I by no means am a P14 expert fellows, so correct me, chime in with your thoughts, tell me I'm crazy etc,.

I've been referring to Statton's booklet on the P14/US Model 17 as my basis for research as soon as I unpacked this rifle.

I initially thought this rifle was a MK1 and not a MK1*.
I was sent a number of pictures before I purchased the rifle and noticed the "absence" of the * stamp on the receiver ring and bolt that would normally indicate a MK1, not a MK1*. Stratton's book say's the MK1* will have the star or asterisk on the receiver ring, bolt handle, barrel and buttstock roundel. Stratton also says serial number on the MK1* will be stamped on the rear sight, barrel, receiver ring and bolt handle.
When I un-packed the rifle. I noticed the * stamped on the extractor (which seems to have a phosphate finish unlike the rest of the blued metal parts), I was curious to see the barrel date etc., so I removed the handguard and noticed the * stamped on the barrel, this is when the confusion started.
I then removed the bolt to look at the rear barrel face and did see the relief machined in it to accommodate the longer bolt locking lug.......well that confirmed to me I was the owner of a MK1* not a MK1, unless, unless.....this is not the original barrel?
Can a MK1* barrel work fine in a MK1 action and MK1 bolt, I don't see why not ? The barrel is a '17 dated barrel but no serial number stamped that I could see...another anomaly or is Stratton not always "bang on" he says a MK1* barrel will be serialized! Do you believe this to be the original barrel? If this is not the original barrel maybe the the rest of the rifle is a MK1 with a MK1* barrel!

This gun I must admit has me a bit puzzled, not in a bad way though. On close examination I'm sure this is a "period correct rifle", I have no doubt. I don't believe it was cobbled together from a bunch of parts. The first thing that attracted me besides the fact it was a Winchester was the shape of the stock and especially the clarity of the manufacturer's roundel. Most P14's I have seen do not have the roundel anymore....they are not deeply struck and a lot of P14 stocks have had the living daylight sanded out of them, to the point where the stock is absent of any markings. This also has a nice deep Weedon stamp under the butt...I looked up the code letter "0" and it indicates Skimin & Wood was the contract firm that did the work.
Upon further "close" inspection I saw that below where the marking disk should be, there undoubtedly is the "Maltese Cross" stamp which Stratton says, " is found on the buttstocks of a small number of very early rifles that the war office found doubtful". Now I'm asking the question, why was this rifle considered "doubtful" especially when it has a as new bore, tight action, nice clean bolt face (have not checked headspace yet) etc., This rifle does not look like it fought even part of the "100 Year War".
Now really getting confused.......the stock looks to me like the rifle had a relatively easy life but maybe the rifle had a tremendous amount of rangetime and bore was compromised and therefore received the Maltese stamp....this all prior to the Weedon Repair Standard. When WRS came on board this rifle could have been re-barreled with a MK1* barrel, explaining the lack of the * on the various places Stratton indicates it should be for a MK1*rifle.

Are my thought's sort of on the right track trying to put together the journey this rifle had or am I completely out to lunch?? One thing I will check in the next few days is, I'll get the gauges out and check headspace.
Help me out here guys!! if you want additional pics I can do that too. I've got ample amounts of time now as a badly sprained ankle has me more less confined to the couch and bed, that's whats enabled me to be so long winded. LOL.

Whatever the case, I think (at least in my own mind) this rifle is a bit of a gem and I'm a happy camper to be the owner of it. I guess the only period correct thing that is absent is the wooden plug in place of the marking disk.....just maybe I'll fine a nice brass disk to temporarily put in it's place.

It's going to be a tack driver and I'll be eager to try it out soon.

Thanks!!

 

[bros]

More picsView attachment 351296

 

[x westie]

Winchester P14 was the British sniper rifle ,in WW 1 and into WW 2 , until the Lee Enfield No.4 T was issued ,

 

[bearhunter]

Very nice pattern 14 rifle that's gone through a refurb and been reissued.

No, your rifle isn't the "sniper" version. Just to be clear, there were other rifles besides the Pattern 14 that were used by the Brits and her "Colonies", such as the ROSS, No1 MkIII etc.

Your rifle has what appears to be its original "fat belly" stock and as was often done, depending on who last used it, the dial has been removed from the "volley'' attachment. It appears to be missing the rear "volley" sight and unit disc.

Not sure about the Star of David stamp on the heel of the grip.

 

[Pblatzz]

That's not a fat belly stock. The fat belly stocks do not have finger grooves and it would have a diagonal groove cut on the left-hand side for the volley sight. Given the date of 1917 on the barrel, it's a late P14
and like many, they have the same stock (with some slight differences ie volley) as the M1917.

You can get the parts to install the volley sights if you wanted to, or keep it as is.

 

[bros]

Very nice pattern 14 rifle that's gone through a refurb and been reissued.

No, your rifle isn't the "sniper" version. Just to be clear, there were other rifles besides the Pattern 14 that were used by the Brits and her "Colonies", such as the ROSS, No1 MkIII etc.

Your rifle has what appears to be its original "fat belly" stock and as was often done, depending on who last used it, the dial has been removed from the "volley'' attachment. It appears to be missing the rear "volley" sight and unit disc.

Not sure about the Star of David stamp on the heel of the grip.

Yeah I'm aware it's not the sniper version......it would have to have a little knurled thumb wheel on the top right side of the rear sight , this was the "fine adjustment sight" and that's what made it a sniper......other P14 snipers of coarse were issued with scopes.

That's not a "Star Of David" on the heel of the grip as you refer to it.......that star is the stamp for W.R.S (Weedon Repair Standard) the letter "O" below it refers to the factory, in this case Skimin & Wood that completed the required work.

 

[bros]

In my original post I made reference to the butt having the Maltese Cross stamp just below where the regimental marking disk would be.

Stratton's book indicates this means " emergency use only". This to me indicates rifle is on the cusp of becoming un-serviceable!!!!

I was thinking about this today and remembered ( also verified by a well respected member here) that the Maltese Cross indicates "non standard parts use", for example, I have a Long Branch rifle with a Maltese Cross stamped fore-end (in this case the Maltese Cross certainly does not mean "emergency use only" this rifle is as new the day it left the factory in 1945 where the Maltese Cross stamp was applied) and it is in reference to when the rifle was manufactured it was fitted with a Savage made rear sight and not a Long Branch!

I think Stratton's wrong on this one!!!

This kinda throws a monkey wrench into part of what I was talking in my original post!!! Oh well, all part of the fun of collecting!!
Still some things about this particular one are as clear as mud!!!!

 

[bearhunter]

From the information in the posts, I would say that rifle was assembled from available parts on hand by the Weedon facility.

This wasn't an unusual practice, when they were putting together every serviceable firearm they could get their hands on.

Nice looking rifle.

Pblatzz is right, that isn't a fat belly stock. I should know better.

 

[bros]

From the information in the posts, I would say that rifle was assembled from available parts on hand by the Weedon facility.

This wasn't an unusual practice, when they were putting together every serviceable firearm they could get their hands on.

Nice looking rifle.

Pblatzz is right, that isn't a fat belly stock. I should know better.

I'm not so sure about that but I'm willing to listen.......my point......."W" marked parts , #'s matching rear sight, Winchester stock. Don't forget one of the major problems in the manufacturing process of the P14 rifle was the real problem that parts would "not" inter-change with the other manufacturer's rifles. That's why most parts are identified and stamped "W" Winchester, "R" Remington, "E" Eddystone to keep them together. Inconsequential parts for instance such as sling swivels, butt plates and barrel bands will interchange and probably did to a certain degree get swapped around a bit in the Weedon process.

 

[bros]

In my original post I made reference to the butt having the Maltese Cross stamp just below where the regimental marking disk would be.

Stratton's book indicates this means " emergency use only". This to me indicates rifle is on the cusp of becoming un-serviceable!!!!

I was thinking about this today and remembered ( also verified by a well respected member here) that the Maltese Cross indicates "non standard parts use", for example, I have a Long Branch rifle with a Maltese Cross stamped fore-end (in this case the Maltese Cross certainly does not mean "emergency use only" this rifle is as new the day it left the factory in 1945 where the Maltese Cross stamp was applied) and it is in reference to when the rifle was manufactured it was fitted with a Savage made rear sight and not a Long Branch!

I think Stratton's wrong on this one!!!

This kinda throws a monkey wrench into part of what I was talking in my original post!!! Oh well, all part of the fun of collecting!!
Still some things about this particular one are as clear as mud!!!!

In my reference to questioning Strattons interpretation of the use of the Maltese Cross, I was referencing Skennertons book on the US Enfield and it mirrors Strattons. I guess one can conclude that the use of the Maltese Cross in rifle manufacture and rifle rebuild was dual purpose....use of non-standard parts or emergency use only....rather interesting I'd say!

 

[Hitzy]

Barrel was serial numbered usually, right beside the receiver serial number.

 

[bros]

Barrel was serial numbered usually, right beside the receiver serial number.

Yeah checked not there....I'm sure it's a replacement.

 

[bearhunter]

I'm not so sure about that but I'm willing to listen.......my point......."W" marked parts , #'s matching rear sight, Winchester stock. Don't forget one of the major problems in the manufacturing process of the P14 rifle was the real problem that parts would "not" inter-change with the other manufacturer's rifles. That's why most parts are identified and stamped "W" Winchester, "R" Remington, "E" Eddystone to keep them together. Inconsequential parts for instance such as sling swivels, butt plates and barrel bands will interchange and probably did to a certain degree get swapped around a bit in the Weedon process.

Not so. P14 rifles were made purposely so that the parts would interchange. I remember reading that was one of the pre requisites to getting a manufacturing contract.

Later P17 rifles didn't have their bolts serialized until after they were given to out of US as lend lease. Canada and the Brits serialized the bolts to the rifles. I've seen a couple with French stamps with unserialized bolts as well.

As you mention, there is no serial number on the barrel, which would indicate it's a replacement barrel to me. I believe the Brits made replacement barrels for the P14 as did most original manufacturers.

It wouldn't be unusual for the Brits to retain the matching bolt and receiver and utilize a take off stock from an otherwise un serviceable rifle.

 

[jakester]

Everything appears numbers matching except the barrel. Looks to me like a P14 mk1 with a later Mk1* barrel installed. The extractor has also been updated. When these rifles were sent for repair, I don't believe the repair facilities stuck to a hard set regimen. Replacing the barrel and bolt to update it to a Mk1* was a major expense, and why do it on all the Mk1 rifles if it's considered "substitute standard". The Brits never really issued them for anything past sniper rifles and home guard use, so it seems they wouldn't convert any more than what their perceived need was. Many of these rifles were given away or sold to other countries so who knows where and when the barrel may have been replaced.

 

[bros]

Not so. P14 rifles were made purposely so that the parts would interchange. I remember reading that was one of the pre requisites to getting a manufacturing contract.

Later P17 rifles didn't have their bolts serialized until after they were given to out of US as lend lease. Canada and the Brits serialized the bolts to the rifles. I've seen a couple with French stamps with unserialized bolts as well.

As you mention, there is no serial number on the barrel, which would indicate it's a replacement barrel to me. I believe the Brits made replacement barrels for the P14 as did most original manufacturers.

It wouldn't be unusual for the Brits to retain the matching bolt and receiver and utilize a take off stock from an otherwise un serviceable rifle.

"you remember reading", well I just read in Stratton's book and Skennerton's (that mirror's that info) that there was a common problem with parts incompatibility as far as the British War Office was concerned. Here is a couple of pages from Stratton's book, my apologies for not getting the books pages flat enough, I didn't want to break the spine of the book!

 

[bros]

Everything appears numbers matching except the barrel. Looks to me like a P14 mk1 with a later Mk1* barrel installed. The extractor has also been updated. When these rifles were sent for repair, I don't believe the repair facilities stuck to a hard set regimen. Replacing the barrel and bolt to update it to a Mk1* was a major expense, and why do it on all the Mk1 rifles if it's considered "substitute standard". The Brits never really issued them for anything past sniper rifles and home guard use, so it seems they wouldn't convert any more than what their perceived need was. Many of these rifles were given away or sold to other countries so who knows where and when the barrel may have been replaced.

I think you're comments are right on the money.
I did remove the action out of the stock again to have a second look, in case I missed something, "nope"..... no serial on this barrel. What I did see upon disassembly though was that both hand -guards are "W" stamped as well on the inside...so that was nice to see.