Best HD option in .223?

wicked_police said:
From almost 40 years ago!! LOL
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I guess officers were more stressed 40 years ago than today. :rolleyes:

wicked_police said:
This is also from the Marines

Pistol Marksmanship US Marine Corps

“...in combat, sight alignment is still the first priority: strive for a clear front sight.”

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCRP 8-10B.3.pdf?ver=2017-03-27-105117-183
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It's a manual instructing marines to "do this". It's not a study of whether or not they actually "do it". My references are saying a majority of people don't actually end up aiming at short distances. I still thank you for bringing up that reference though.

wicked_police said:
This is also from the same PhD in police psychology from the force science institute article you linked.

“There are changes to the eye under stress that can make sighting more difficult, but with the right training these can be overcome. Our research with equipment that tracks eye movement shows that sighted fire can be accomplished even under intense stress.”
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He said: "To achieve that level of skill, be prepared to go — on your own — beyond the training offered by your agency". He's saying the agency usually don't train you beyond that. Meaning the average LE doesn't have the ability to do what you are proposing.

wicked_police said:
Another person with real world experience

Jarod Reston - “I have used my sights in all of my shootings. From iron sights on pistols, magnified on rifle, and dots on rifles. Saying you don’t have time is so wrong. Stop putting that nonsense out.“

Jared has been a law enforcement officer with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office since 2001 and has been an active member of S.W.A.T. since 2004. Jared is currently assigned as a Detective in the Department of Homeland Security/Gang Investigations Unit, and he is the assistant team leader and lead firearms instructor for the SWAT team. Jared has been involved in the successful resolution of over one thousand S.W.A.T. missions, including several lethal force incidents.
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Good for him! In reality though, most of us are non-s.w.a.t. and aren't better than even the average police. Agreed?


wicked_police said:
That’s some of what I have, backed up with references. The only one pulling $hit out of their a$$ is you.
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Why do I get the feeling that you guys can't wait to jump into insults? How about digest your references properly, don't just $hit it out and think it's golden.
 
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PinaKaleada said:
More props to me for referencing Marines, NYPD and a PhD in police psychology for more reliable studies, not emotional-filled anecdotes right?
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Definitely. In fact, you deserve an attaboy and a pat on the back. Look at you, using the internet all by yourself.


PinaKaleada said:
....I'm still waiting for some real referenced & researched rebuttals, but I can't say I have high expectations :rolleyes:
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I guess going about ones day at an extremely depressed level of knowledge and competence sets a person up for having low expectations.
 
wicked_police said:
You at least got that right.
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Knowing your background and the thousands of people you have trained & observed under stress gives you more mileage than many on CGN, people who quote studies or train on square ranges should heed what your providing as evidence/data, plus anyone that argues information or date from Force Science has no legitimacy in my book.

gadget
 
PinaKaleada said:
By the lack of actual content and input from some of these posts, I wonder what kind of response I would get with a more academically orientated approach. Let's try:
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Your own "academically oriented approach" still proves you wrong LOL

PinaKaleada said:
NYPD
“Good sight alignment is fundamental to target shooting, yet 70% of cases reviewed indicated
that no sight alignment was employed when the revolver was fired.” - NYPD’s SOP, (1981)
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
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Irrelevant 30 years old try again. You going to whip up some accounts form the civil war next

PinaKaleada said:
PhD in police psychology
"Closer than that, at distances where most gunfights occur, trying to use your sights may take too long; by the time you're sighted in, your target may have moved. At less than 20 feet, you're probably best to fix your gaze on your target and quickly drive your gun up to align with that line of view, firing unsighted." - The Force Science Institute (FSI) Executive Director Bill Lewinski, PhD, doctorate in police psychology
https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...e-your-sights-in-a-gunfight-MCivXtc56uyV18la/
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Opps you might want to read the rest of the article LOL

Closer than that, at distances where most gunfights occur, trying to use your sights may take too long; by the time you're sighted in, your target may have moved. At less than 20 feet, you're probably best to fix your gaze on your target and quickly drive your gun up to align with that line of view, firing unsighted.

Obviously, to do this successfully requires a great deal of consistent practice, responding to force-on-force scenarios at various distances that develop realistically in terms of action, movement, and speed. This will help you learn to identify the telltale patterns of an evolving threat so you can get ahead of the reactionary curve.

Over time, you will learn how threats unfold and be able to anticipate what, where, when, and how the “play” will progress. This, in turn, will build in you the ability to react automatically — without conscious thought — either with or without the use of your sights, depending on the dynamic circumstances you face. You will, in effect, be better equipped to stay ahead of the reactionary curve.

To achieve that level of skill, be prepared to go — on your own — beyond the training offered by your agency. It is the rare department indeed that has the budget and the time to take officers as far as their native ability allows and elevate them to truly elite status.
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None of which you have done or will do

PinaKaleada said:
Marine Corp
"In most cases, the time to take an aimed shot will not be available...."
"The light necessary to see and use the sights (if the time were available), is not always sufficient"
"... The instinctive-pointing technique of combat firing is the best all-around method of shooting the hand gun without the aid of sights"
Fleet Marine Force Reference Publication FM12-80: Kill or Get Killed. p. 296.
https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfrp-12-80-kill-or-get-killed/page/n9/mode/2up
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Fail yet again not only is that FMFRP no longer valid it is so old they dont even call them FMFRPs any more. But you know that right? Because you actually researched it right? Nor just google a cherry picked qoute right? LOL

And in case you were wondering, here is what the current MCRP for pistol marksmanship say current as of 2017

Aiming In field firing, the fundamentals are applied in a compressed time so sight alignment and sight picture are achieved as the shot is fired. Although the target must be quickly engaged in combat, sight alignment is still the first priority: strive for a clear front sight. Distance to the target and the size of the target affects sight alignment as follows:O As the distance to the target increases and thesize of the target decreases, sight alignment becomes more critical to target engagement.Accurate sight picture/sight alignment can not be compromised for speed.O Sight alignment is critical to the effective engagement of smaller targets such as partially exposed target As the distance to the target decreases, perfect sight alignment is not as critical, but there must be a relationship between the sights and their placement on the target within the aiming area to ensure accuracy

Sight Alignment/Sight Picture Pistol presentation drills and dry fire help the Marine achieve a consistent grip and rapid presentation and aid in quickly acquiring sight alignment and sight picture. The Marine always executes the following steps:O Identify the target and quickly present the pistol to the target while simultaneously sweeping the safety with the thumb of the right hand.(Disengaging the safety with the right thumb ensures the trigger is not pulled before taking the pistol off safe.)O Shift the focus from the target to the front sight to obtain sight alignment while presenting the pistol. As the front sight breaks the plane of vision, acquire the front sight and begin to apply trigger control as sight picture is acquired.O Apply trigger pressure until the shot is fired

Aiming Sight

alignment remains unchanged for accurate engagement of a moving target. The most common error when engaging moving targets is to focus on the target rather than focusing on the front sight. Sight picture is the point of aim in relation to the target while maintaining sight alignment. For both the ambush and tracking methods, sight picture is changed from the normal center mass picture, based on range, speed,and angle of movement of the target. It takes practice in moving target engagement to quickly establish the desired sight picture for a given point of aim (lead)

Engaging Targets: Using the Pistol Sights When the Marine fires the pistol, he must concentrate on the pistol’s front sight. The adherence to the fundamentals of marksmanship becomes even more vital when both the Marine and the enemy may be moving

Acquiring Sight Alignment/Sight Picture When holding a flashlight on a target, the tendency is to look at the target rather than the sights.Sight alignment is still necessary for effective tar-get engagement
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https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCRP 8-10B.3.pdf?ver=2017-03-27-105117-183

I think that about covers all the BS LOL

You are wrong

Shawn
 
shawn said:
https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCRP 8-10B.3.pdf?ver=2017-03-27-105117-183

I think that about covers all the BS LOL

You are wrong

Shawn
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Again, I know this is a training instruction. I'm about about what real cases actually show. Can you reference case studies(not a training instruction), in which a large % of people confirmed use of sights at close range(<5m)? That would be the correct parallel to what I referenced.

Case studies please, not a training manual.
 
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How do you think they writing training manuals?

They don't just pull it out of their asses like you. Its based on AARs

Can you reference any case studies? Because so far you have failed completely to do so. You have posted opinion articles and one book from 40 years ago

Shawn
 
shawn said:
How do you think they writing training manuals?

They don't just pull it out of their asses like you. Its based on AARs

Can you reference any case studies? Because so far you have failed completely to do so. You have posted opinion articles and one book from 40 years ago

Shawn
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Yes I did reference an old one. Perhaps you can reference a newer, more up to date case study?
 
PinaKaleada said:
do I get the feeling that you guys can't wait to jump into insults? How about digest your references properly, don't just $hit it out and think it's golden.
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LOL...The irony in this one sentence is so over the top that I am convinced this is all just a big gag.

Congrats PK, you had me going...
 
This is getting ridiculous although I have to commend you PK on your dogged persistence.

You can pull up all examples of people shooting without sights. And we've agreed that sometimes its inevitable that it happens, like retention shooting. And yes, you can hit something sometimes.

But it is still not something that should be taught. Does it happen? Yes! But is it a legally defensible way to teach to shoot without sights? No.

Do whatever you like. But I don't think the vast experience from guys like Shaun, Wicked police, DT741, and others will ever change your mind.
 
Still alive said:
This is getting ridiculous although I have to commend you PK on your dogged persistence.

You can pull up all examples of people shooting without sights. And we've agreed that sometimes its inevitable that it happens, like retention shooting. And yes, you can hit something sometimes.

But it is still not something that should be taught. Does it happen? Yes! But is it a legally defensible way to teach to shoot without sights? No.

Do whatever you like. But I don't think the vast experience from guys like Shaun, Wicked police, DT4741, and others will ever change your mind.
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Dude I agree with you. I don't doubt these guys have vast experience if they do it as a career. I'm saying an average civilian needs to understand their own psychology and have realistic expectation, based on case studies.
 
PinaKaleada said:
Please, if you think mine's outdated hence irrelevant, surely you must have newer ones to show.
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Do I need crayons? You have yet to post a case study. You know what a case study is right? Have you even read Kill or get killed? I bet not just googled the quote. I have read it btw

Shawn
 
shawn said:
Do I need crayons? You have yet to post a case study. You know what a case study is right? Have you even read Kill or get killed? I bet not just googled the quote. I have read it btw

Shawn
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I have not read through it, so all I can do is defer to your knowledge. Now that we have established that you are the wiser one, would you kindly show some updated reference, case studies and research already?
 
PinaKaleada said:
I have not read through it, so all I can do is defer to your knowledge. Now that we have established that you are the wiser one, would you kindly show some updated reference, case studies and research already?
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No

You are the one arguing against the status quo that sights are useless under 5m. Prove it

Shawn
 
spoon-feed /ˈspo͞onˌfēd/

verb

feed (someone) by using a spoon.
"he is spoon-feeding the chimpanzee as one might feed a baby"

provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.
"certain students enjoy finding out things for themselves; others prefer being spoon-fed"
 
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