Is my Lee Enfield dead? -- 303 Brittish

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renovatio

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Hi,

I have bought a "sporterised" Lee Enfield, #4, Mk1 a couple of years ago.

This was the first gun I bought and shot...

I am not sure it is even safe for deer hunting this fall.

Following this guy's suggestion :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsNCqqWgZZA

I tested the exit end of the bore with a bullet. Here is the result (it would be totally worn out, if this guy is right)
https://i.imgur.com/81y5qlS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6V8IWNn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M7VeGE5.jpg

Then, as this guy suggested, I tested the chamber. If this guy is right, it would be totally worn out too as the cartridge is totally flush with the bore:
https://i.imgur.com/zBDAJQ8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EkX1ZRD.jpg


As I tested it in the field in the last years, I found it hard to aim. I thought it was me, not aiming right, but following those test, I think the rifle might just be dead...

here are my 3 questions for you#:

1- Is the rifle safe to use?
2- Will the rifle have enough accuracy and reliability to use it to hunt white tail deer this fall?
3- Is there anything else you experienced guys would have me tested or pictured about this gun to help you give me advice?

Best regards,
 
My thoughts. It will be safe to use and reliable but maybe not accurate.

Rather than the bullet in the muzzle test, what does the bore look like? Is there strong and deep rifling or is it a shot out 'smooth bore'? Is the crown and last inch the the problem? (maybe not worth fixing)

Breech should be head space checked with a go/no go gauge at least. I doubt the chamber is a problem unless there are obvious problems.

If you can't reliably hit a paper target at 50 yards or the bullets are tumbling you have a problem.



renovatio said:
Hi,

I have bought a "sporterised" Lee Enfield, #4, Mk1 a couple of years ago.

This was the first gun I bought and shot...

I am not sure it is even safe for deer hunting this fall.

Following this guy's suggestion :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsNCqqWgZZA

I tested the exit end of the bore with a bullet. Here is the result (it would be totally worn out, if this guy is right)
https://i.imgur.com/81y5qlS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6V8IWNn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M7VeGE5.jpg

Then, as this guy suggested, I tested the chamber. If this guy is right, it would be totally worn out too as the cartridge is totally flush with the bore:
https://i.imgur.com/zBDAJQ8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EkX1ZRD.jpg


As I tested it in the field in the last years, I found it hard to aim. I thought it was me, not aiming right, but following those test, I think the rifle might just be dead...

here are my 3 questions for you#:

1- Is the rifle safe to use?
2- Will the rifle have enough accuracy and reliability to use it to hunt white tail deer this fall?
3- Is there anything else you experienced guys would have me tested or pictured about this gun to help you give me advice?

Best regards,
Click to expand...
 
The muzzle test is a rough measure. Many No.4s left the factory with loose bores. If it passed the straightness test, wasn't going to explode and could hold a group, then it was Good To Go. It wasn't as much a sloppy QC, but a deliberate choice for generous tolerances to get rifles into the hands of the troops as fast as possible.

Secondly, the chamber test you've done seems inconclusive. The 303 headspaces off the rim. The separate bolthead is an engineered solution to wider tolerances. Each bolt head has a number from 0 to 4. To measure headspace without gauges, a piece of copier paper between the boltface and the rear of an unfired case will tell you if there is room to close the bolt or too little clearance to drop the bolt handle. If it closes, you need to find the next larger number bolthead.
 
Well yesterday I shot a .75" 3 shot 2450 fps group at 80 yards with an old Parker hale 303. 43.1 gr D4895 and 174 SMK.
On a bench but I am thrilled with the results. My eyes are far from good.
 
Thanks for your answer.

The bore is hard to picture with a phone. Here is my attempt: https://i.imgur.com/3aBsu8v.jpg

To me, it looks like the grooves are still intact.

It's far from shiny mirrorlike surface... I find it har do judge with my novice eye.

I will try to take better pictures and post them.

Regards,
 
Shoot it, and show us the results. My BSA LE sporter 303 grouped up to about 12" at 100 with several varieties of ammo. Sold it all and bought a couple of boxes of Norma 150gn ammo and never looked back, consistently just a tad over moa. Shot 7 animals with the last 9 shots before I sold it, the closest at 1 metre, and the furtherest at 350 metres. Chances are your rifle may very well shoot ok, provided the head spacing is ok, and thats an easy fix.
 
The bullet test is a very rough and ready way of gauging. Bullets tend to vary slightly in diameter, it is just the way that they are made on different machines in different factories. What can happen is that you test the barrel with one cartridge and it passes, try a different cartridge and it fails.

An armourer would have pin gauges to slide into the bore. They were precision ground to be within 0.0001 inches.

I have bought older rifles that failed the 'bullet test' miserably, yet with hand loads with slightly over sized bullets, they shoot just fine.

So yes, your rifle has some wear. But howzit shoot?
 
As people mentioned give it a go and let the rifle tell you if it's still accurate. For reloading don't full length resize, instead resize about 3/4 of the neck so that the brass will last longer and fit the generous chamber found in most Lee Enfields. Also Hornady 303 bullets are .312 and may shoot a bit better in a slightly worn bore.
 
Good on you for wanting to check your firearm before shooting it.

Bores do wear out, and the tolerances vary, however, your pictures don't seem to indicate that. Before slugging the bore, a visual check of the crown will give you a bunch of information.



Your picture did not show all the grooves, but I see a nice deep groove with a smooth and normal crown. Round nosed bullets tend to decrease in diameter just after the cannelure. Back in the day there used to be an expression that a 303 wasn't completely worn out until a 308 bullet (not cartridge) would drop into the muzzle.

If the muzzle passes the visual test, I use a caliper to check the bore diameter. The bore is usually 0.303" or a bit larger. Because of the 5 grooves checking the groove diameter gets a bit challenging, and groove diameter is in the 0.310" and up to 0.314" range.

Your picture down the bore looks pretty normal, rifling for the full length of the barrel. I've saw a well used 1895 Winchester in 303 that had no rifling for the last foot of the barrel, accuracy was starting to fall off.

I'm not sure what the ammo plunk test is meant to prove, and I skimmed the video and IMHO the logic of this test seems flawed. Factory ammo should plunk in. I've never experienced factory ammo that would not plunk in any 303. Factory ammo is smaller than minimum chamber by a fair margin.

Headspace can be an issue, more for reloading than for firing factory ammo. I do not have headspace gauges for the 303, but if I suspect a headspace issue I just put a layer of masking tape on the back of an empty new or resized brass and try closing the bolt, add another layer if the bolt closes too easily. Another quick check to confirm a really worn rifle is to turn out the bolt 1 turn and see if the bolt will close, first on an empty chamber and then on a dummy cartridge. Do not use live ammo for testing. If the bolt closes, not good.

I usually check the chamber and headspace by firing a few rounds, (once I've determined that it is safe to do so). I've shot several 303's over the years and I've set my FL reloading die so that it sets the shoulder back a wee bit. 0.005" would be ideal. I check the fired case with my L-N-L gauge, then I FL size it. This is a comparison test, not a pass or fail. The last couple rifles I test fired did not require any die adjustment to be in the zone. Normal for my die ends up having about 0.025" clearance between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. The 303 is an exception to the rule of contact plus a 1/4 turn, IMHO.

I don't load hot, usually 2 - 3 grains under max, a middle of the data load, and case life is good.

There is a mountain of info on the 303 and the Lee Enfield online, most are better than the video you linked to.

8pcuFnj.jpg


This is an example of pitted muzzle, I ended up cutting off about 1 1/2" to get past the pits. I had the muzzle recrowned with an 11° cutter and this 300 Win Mag shot better than 1 moa out to 300 yards. The bore was still rough(ish) and the first shots out of a clean bore did not group well. I would just clean by pulling through a bore snake with some lube, one pull only. This left the bore fouled enough to put the first shot into the group, but with some lube to prevent further corrosion.

Nitro
 
I seem to remember having Remington ammo that was smaller and used to all the way to the brass in the muzzle, I believe the bullets were 308. 303 should be .311
 
The wear at the muzzle may possibly be from ramming a cleaning rod up and down the bore with little regard for scraping the rod against the muzzle. Bolt actions should be cleaned from the breech end.

You may find if you cut the barrel back a couple of inches and re-crown the muzzle you're back into tolerable specs once again.
 
Wow, lots of very interesting and informative cues.

There are a lot of relevant questions in your replies. I will try to answer them all.

So, about the bullet test. You guys were right. The first test I did was with a Remington round. I have retried it with a Federal round, and the result is much better:
https://i.imgur.com/1Vkpwa6.jpg

As for the rifling, to my novice eye, it seems okay. I tried to take pictures of it :
https://i.imgur.com/YT9Mv40.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Boq2GdU.jpg


And now, for the crown. When I look at it, it looks like the opening is flat, but does that mean that the crown is to be remade?
https://i.imgur.com/WsNfAvy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Dpl8PHq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Rz2W66p.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NS4VeUe.jpg
Do armorers usually do a crowning job? Do you guys know it that would be expansive? Is it worth it for an old "sporterised (bastardised)" Lee Enfield?


And an additional question. Some time ago, when I went to the shooting range, the guys there told me that my cartridge showed signs of a problematic hit from the "pin" (not sure of the correct technical terminology). They said that it goes so deep that it could pierce the primer, and release hot gases, or something of the like. They told me the gun was not safe, and I should always use goggles when firing it. Were they full of it? I trust your opinion.
https://i.imgur.com/DUdEq5T.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Sff7BLA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K6QOPMr.jpg


And last thing, the empty cartridge shows some darkening on it at the edge of the brass.
https://i.imgur.com/pDXzOze.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kBUgBl3.jpg
Again the guys at the shooting range told me that this was problematic, but I don't remember why.


About the idea of reloading with a slightly larger bullet, I have looked into reloading, and it seems that it would not be a way to save money. So I am not interested in investing time for reloading at this time.


As for the headspace, I am having a hard time understanding what you are suggesting me to do with the cartridge, the bolt and the paper. I am gonna hit google and see if I can find some info on testing the headpsace myself.



I want to thank you all for helping a novice like me. So far, my conclusion is that the gun is not hazardous to use, but its accuracy will be revealed by testing it with paper target.
 
renovatio said:
Wow, lots of very interesting and informative cues.

There are a lot of relevant questions in your replies. I will try to answer them all.

So, about the bullet test. You guys were right. The first test I did was with a Remington round. I have retried it with a Federal round, and the result is much better:
https://i.imgur.com/1Vkpwa6.jpg

As for the rifling, to my novice eye, it seems okay. I tried to take pictures of it :
https://i.imgur.com/YT9Mv40.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Boq2GdU.jpg


And now, for the crown. When I look at it, it looks like the opening is flat, but does that mean that the crown is to be remade?
https://i.imgur.com/WsNfAvy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Dpl8PHq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Rz2W66p.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NS4VeUe.jpg
Do armorers usually do a crowning job? Do you guys know it that would be expansive? Is it worth it for an old "sporterised (bastardised)" Lee Enfield?


And an additional question. Some time ago, when I went to the shooting range, the guys there told me that my cartridge showed signs of a problematic hit from the "pin" (not sure of the correct technical terminology). They said that it goes so deep that it could pierce the primer, and release hot gases, or something of the like. They told me the gun was not safe, and I should always use goggles when firing it. Were they full of it? I trust your opinion.
https://i.imgur.com/DUdEq5T.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Sff7BLA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K6QOPMr.jpg


And last thing, the empty cartridge shows some darkening on it at the edge of the brass.
https://i.imgur.com/pDXzOze.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kBUgBl3.jpg
Again the guys at the shooting range told me that this was problematic, but I don't remember why.


About the idea of reloading with a slightly larger bullet, I have looked into reloading, and it seems that it would not be a way to save money. So I am not interested in investing time for reloading at this time.


As for the headspace, I am having a hard time understanding what you are suggesting me to do with the cartridge, the bolt and the paper. I am gonna hit google and see if I can find some info on testing the headpsace myself.



I want to thank you all for helping a novice like me. So far, my conclusion is that the gun is not hazardous to use, but its accuracy will be revealed by testing it with paper target.
Click to expand...

Shoot it, that will tell you everything you need to know.
Anything else is just a guess
I have rd of an Enfield bolt having a catastrophic failure except in Ackley's destructive testing he did.
I have owned and hunting wit dozens of Enfields over the years and the oonly way to gauge accuracy is to shoot them, same as any rifle.
Cat
 
The internet is telling you to shoot the fuggin thing. Everything I see in the pics is OK - crown, case discoloration, etc. Since you are posting pics of fired cases, you have already shot it, and nobody was injured. Wearing eye and ear protection is SOP.
A lot of folks in the firearms community disdain Lee Enfields because the were cheap to buy after the war, as surplus. I should point out they were made to a milspec requirement that a lot of modern rifles would not pass. They may not be pretty, but they certainly are functional.
 
Cases look ok, firing pin strike looks ok. If your primers are backing out or sitting proud of the case head that is one indication of a head space issue. The muzzle looks off to me and if it was mine I would cut and crown it. Not sure where you are but most gunsmith shops will have a 303 headspace gauge and shouldn't charge much to check for you.
 
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