Does the Firearms ban apply to antique status firearms over 20mm??

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Rdcollector

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I have a couple of large bore antique class firearms with bores over 20mm.
One is a modern repo flintlock and the other is an original antique percussion.
Do the new regulations banning firearms with a bore over 20mm apply to them as well??
Or does the fact they are not firearms under the regulations make them safe?
 
I am asking the same and trying to find out, i have been told yes and no but nothing offical. Since they are not deemed firearms they shouldn't
 
I’m guessing/hoping no based on the fact that short barrelled Pistol’s and some 32 or 25 cal pistols are antique class and not prohibited. Logic being they are not legally a firearm so the login regs on pistols do not apply. I’m also thinking/hoping the same applies to the 37 and 38 mm flare guns that are not specifically listed. Ie ww11 Webleys. And some of the other launchers not specifically listed.
 
I cannot see why large bore antiques would be prohibited. They are certainly not mentioned in the OIC.
I would also suggest that officially asking might not be a good idea. Let things lie.
 
tiriaq said:
I cannot see why large bore antiques would be prohibited. They are certainly not mentioned in the OIC.
I would also suggest that officially asking might not be a good idea. Let things lie.
Click to expand...

I am keeping my fingers crossed about antiques but the 20 mm ban would also potentially cover orange cannons (they shoot fresh oranges) candy cannons and signal cannons of modern manufacture. I also agree that we are best not to ask for an official answer

cheers mooncoon
 
Rdcollector said:
I have a couple of large bore antique class firearms with bores over 20mm.
One is a modern repo flintlock and the other is an original antique percussion.
Do the new regulations banning firearms with a bore over 20mm apply to them as well??
Or does the fact they are not firearms under the regulations make them safe?
Click to expand...

I advocate complying with laws. but they are after artillery and cannons in civilian hands. It is very unlikely that someone will start measuring the barrel of your antique.

HOWEVER, if they want to stick something to you then I am sure you will be charged. The OIC doesnt say that it doesnt apply to antiques.

You are simply collateral damage, like the guys who own (very pricey) .460 Wby magnums, because the libs despise you and dont give a ####
 
When it comes to what the RCMP can do concerning what they may think is a firearm or not... it isn't that much different from the Gestapo in WWII ... less violent is all. "Rights" are out the window.
 
in Short No if you look at the RCMP web site it now lists Antiques as not firearms although they have taken off the the definitions of antique fire arms . Antiques are deemed non firearms Anything ignited by a Match or wick or flint new or old so
muzzle loading cannons fall into this class as long as not pistol length are deemed non firearms just don't convert a modern one to a percussion cap firing system go to
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms

It lists 3 classes of fire arms Non-restricted , restricted and Prohibited : Under what is not a firearm: you will see ANTIQUES listed there so the law states that firearms over 20mm are banned : Antiques are classed as NOT FIREARMS there for not effected these 2 links should help put your minds at rest

https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/page-2.html#h-1024358

also updated the link to antique regs in the STICKY
 
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tiriaq said:
I cannot see why large bore antiques would be prohibited. They are certainly not mentioned in the OIC.
I would also suggest that officially asking might not be a good idea. Let things lie.
Click to expand...


Yes they are mentioned but not in the same words we use:

1579.Pursuant to subsections 84(1) and 117.15(1) of the Criminal Code, the Governor in Council (GIC) has the authority to prescribe a firearm or a device to be prohibited in accordance with the definitions of “prohibited firearm” and “prohibited device.”

The key word here is "device"...doesn't need to be a firearm under the old definition, and to further their stance they have made them "another classification of firearm"

1600.Also included are two new categories of firearms that exceed safe civilian use. These are characterized by the following physical attributes: a 20 mm bore or greater (e.g. grenade launcher) and the capacity to discharge a projectile with a muzzle energy greater than 10 000 joules (e.g. a .50 calibre BMG). These weapons are primarily designed to produce mass human casualties or cause significant property damage at long ranges, and the potential power of these weapons exceeds safe or legitimate civilian use.

The use Grenade launchers & 50 BMG as examples but specifically do not limit the scope to only those items...the 20mm specification & the 10000 joules specification is a firearms class as of adopting this document.

In the event that there is a buy-back, the last time I priced any replica civil war cannons mounted on a carnage along with the accompanying Limber was in the $20-30,000 range...I wonder if they took that into account at any time...
 
I've joked about robbing the 7/11 when I'm driving the 3" bore cannon around to events... but to my knowledge there hasn't been a cannon used in an offense in North America since 1865. NO need to fact check me on that either, thanks :) This nonsense has been out of control since 1934 or whenever that was, but this is definitely a new low regardless of how this plays out regarding antiques. Everyone has to stand for each other - we've known for decades they want all firearms of the street so.... write your letters, join CCFR or CSSSA...
 
1991 0ctober 30th i know a cannon was fired in downtown chatham ontario. The citys downtown was blocked off for days lol. The one responsible for firing said cannon was never caught

With all this in mind i still want to purchase a percussion 8ga if our dollar ever comes back. Wonder if i could get it imported? Circa 1850 in the add
 
tiriaq said:
I cannot see why large bore antiques would be prohibited. They are certainly not mentioned in the OIC.
I would also suggest that officially asking might not be a good idea. Let things lie.
Click to expand...

They do not have to be mentioned by name... The 20mm rule is now applied to all firearms.
 
tiriaq said:
So, this prohibition applies to antique muzzleloading firearms?
Click to expand...

"Also included are two new categories of firearms that exceed safe civilian use. These are characterized by the following physical attributes: a 20 mm bore or greater (e.g. grenade launcher) and the capacity to discharge a projectile with a muzzle energy greater than 10 000 joules (e.g. a .50 calibre BMG). These weapons are primarily designed to produce mass human casualties or cause significant property damage at long ranges, and the potential power of these weapons exceeds safe or legitimate civilian use."

It only refers to firearms. So all firearms with a 20mm bore are now prohibited. There is no exception made in any of the documentation. Here is the link to the full thing so you can check yourself.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020-05-01-x3/html/sor-dors96-eng.html

This ridiculous issue is the exact reason you don't just ignore the lobby groups, industry, and experts on the subject. They had no god damn idea what they were doing and it's going to cost them far more money then they are saying.. 250 million is no where near what is needed.
 
Rdcollector said:
I have a couple of large bore antique class firearms with bores over 20mm.
One is a modern repo flintlock and the other is an original antique percussion.
Do the new regulations banning firearms with a bore over 20mm apply to them as well??
Or does the fact they are not firearms under the regulations make them safe?
Click to expand...

SO first, it needs to be pointed out again for those that don't know, that ANTIQUE is not a separate classification from NR, RES or PROHIB.

It is in effect an ADDITIONAL classification, that exempts certain firearms from the rules that govern firearms more generally.

Antiques are firearms under S 2 of the criminal code, are subject to the S84 definitions in part 3 of the criminal code, and are subject to all of the regulations relating to firearms by default, unless specifically exempted.

Just as there are antique RIFLEs and antique HANDGUNS and antique SHOTGUNS, likewise there are antique NR, antique RESTRICTED, and antique PROHIBITED. Further, you can have antique PROHIBITED RIFLES, antique PROHIBITED SHOTGUNS, and antique PROHIBITED HANDGUNS.

Rifle, shotgun and handgun, for the most part, are mutually exclusive categories, meaning a firearm can not be both a rifle and a handgun. Likewise, with few exceptions NR, RES, and Prohib are mutually exclusive categories. However, type, ie rifle shotgun and handgun, operate independently of classification, and so it is conceivable that a firearm could meet any combination of these labels.

The definition of Antique is contained in S84 (1) of criminal code.
antique firearm means

(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or

(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm; (arme à feu historique)
Click to expand...

This definition does not reference firearms type or firearms class, and so operates independently of those other terms. Being an antique, contrary to popular belief, does not make a firearm not prohibited. Further, the regulations published last week do not affect the antique definition. What was an antique last month is an antique this month. HOWEVER, the classification of your antique MAY have changed. What was an NR antique last week may now be a prohibited antique.

The special rules for antiques, ie what they are exempted from, are contained at Section 84(3) of the code.

For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:

(a) any antique firearm;
Click to expand...

I am not going to post an exhaustive list of what those sections are, you can read the criminal code here. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont.

In short, you do not need a license, a registration certificate or any authorization to possess, use, transport or discharge ANY antique firearm.

So even IF your antique was just prescribed to be a prohibited firearm, it is still an antique, you still don't need a license for it, you still don't need to register it, etc.

HOWEVER, S. 84(3.1) of the criminal code states antiques are still subject to 86(2) of the criminal code, and regulations issued under 117(h) fo the firearms act which requires compliance with the regulations for storage, transportation, display, use, etc. So IF your antique just got reclassified to prohibited, then you now need to store, transport and display it in accordance with the regulations for prohibited firearms.

Now while the recent regulations were issued with an amnesty that authorizes you to store, transport or display the firearm in accordance with its previous classification, this ONLY applies if you are engaged in one of the activities covered under the amnesty. Storage is one of the purposes listed in the amnesty, but ONLY storage for the purposes of complying with the amnesty, IE surrender, deactivation, or return to its lawful owner.

Storage for the purposes of keeping it would not be covered under the amnesty, nor would any transportation for the purpose of use or discharge, and as such any newly prohibited antique would be subject to the regulations for storage transportation and display of prohibited firearms. Lastly, and confusingly, while those storage regulations do specifically mention rules for antiques, as we have already identified, firearms can be both antique AND prohibited, so you would have to follow the regulations for both antiques, and prohibited firearms. Complying with both sets of rules means complying to the higher standard where applicable.

Clear as mud? I hope that answers your question.
 
Cameron SS said:
SO first, it needs to be pointed out again for those that don't know, that ANTIQUE is not a separate classification from NR, RES or PROHIB.

It is in effect an ADDITIONAL classification, that exempts certain firearms from the rules that govern firearms more generally.

Antiques are firearms under S 2 of the criminal code, are subject to the S84 definitions in part 3 of the criminal code, and are subject to all of the regulations relating to firearms by default, unless specifically exempted.

Just as there are antique RIFLEs and antique HANDGUNS and antique SHOTGUNS, likewise there are antique NR, antique RESTRICTED, and antique PROHIBITED. Further, you can have antique PROHIBITED RIFLES, antique PROHIBITED SHOTGUNS, and antique PROHIBITED HANDGUNS.

Rifle, shotgun and handgun, for the most part, are mutually exclusive categories, meaning a firearm can not be both a rifle and a handgun. Likewise, with few exceptions NR, RES, and Prohib are mutually exclusive categories. However, type, ie rifle shotgun and handgun, operate independently of classification, and so it is conceivable that a firearm could meet any combination of these labels.

The definition of Antique is contained in S84 (1) of criminal code.


This definition does not reference firearms type or firearms class, and so operates independently of those other terms. Being an antique, contrary to popular belief, does not make a firearm not prohibited. Further, the regulations published last week do not affect the antique definition. What was an antique last month is an antique this month. HOWEVER, the classification of your antique MAY have changed. What was an NR antique last week may now be a prohibited antique.

The special rules for antiques, ie what they are exempted from, are contained at Section 84(3) of the code.



I am not going to post an exhaustive list of what those sections are, you can read the criminal code here. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont.

In short, you do not need a license, a registration certificate or any authorization to possess, use, transport or discharge ANY antique firearm.

So even IF your antique was just prescribed to be a prohibited firearm, it is still an antique, you still don't need a license for it, you still don't need to register it, etc.

HOWEVER, S. 84(3.1) of the criminal code states antiques are still subject to 86(2) of the criminal code, and regulations issued under 117(h) fo the firearms act which requires compliance with the regulations for storage, transportation, display, use, etc. So IF your antique just got reclassified to prohibited, then you now need to store, transport and display it in accordance with the regulations for prohibited firearms.

Now while the recent regulations were issued with an amnesty that authorizes you to store, transport or display the firearm in accordance with its previous classification, this ONLY applies if you are engaged in one of the activities covered under the amnesty. Storage is one of the purposes listed in the amnesty, but ONLY storage for the purposes of complying with the amnesty, IE surrender, deactivation, or return to its lawful owner.

Storage for the purposes of keeping it would not be covered under the amnesty, nor would any transportation for the purpose of use or discharge, and as such any newly prohibited antique would be subject to the regulations for storage transportation and display of prohibited firearms. Lastly, and confusingly, while those storage regulations do specifically mention rules for antiques, as we have already identified, firearms can be both antique AND prohibited, so you would have to follow the regulations for both antiques, and prohibited firearms. Complying with both sets of rules means complying to the higher standard where applicable.

Clear as mud? I hope that answers your question.
Click to expand...

Actually it is. Your whole dissertation ignores the actual words of the OIC..."creates two new categories of firearms"...my fuse fired cannons weren't even firearms last Thursday evening but come Friday morning all of a sudden they are "banned firearms" of the new classification.
 
Dear Fellow Canuckians - my heart really goes out to ALL law-abiding shooters here and in the rest of the internet shooting world. As some of you may know, it happened TWICE here in UK - the first time back in 1987, when we got 'offered' £150 refund for our semi-auto centrefire rifles - ANY brand or type. Most of us managed to offload our little collections into Europe. Since then, the UK market has had to 'invent' some very interesting-looking firearms that rely on the operator working for a living, instead of just pulling the trigger. And then, in 1997, came the handgun ban, that overnight made every cartridge-firing handgun that looked like a cartridge-firing handgun into a paperweight-in-waiting - at the owner's expense, 'natch. 3/4 of the UK took notice, but Northern Ireland told Westminster to go pound sand, so THEY got to keep their handguns. The resultant cost to the tax-payer, for a measly 103,000 handguns, came to an astonishing £110 Million - now the equivalent of almost £172 Million.

You'll note, I hope, that I haven't mentioned politics in any way, so I'll keep it like that.
 
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