Does the Firearms ban apply to antique status firearms over 20mm??

fingers284 said:
Actually it is. Your whole dissertation ignores the actual words of the OIC..."creates two new categories of firearms"...my fuse fired cannons weren't even firearms last Thursday evening but come Friday morning all of a sudden they are "banned firearms" of the new classification.
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You are incorrect. The OIC does not create any new category of firearm. The criminal code definition of firearm is in the legislation and it can not be changed by regulation. What was NOT a firearm last month is not a firearm this month.

The phrase "creates two new categories of firearms" does not appear in the regulations.

Neither does the word 'banned' appear in the regulation.

Note that the order in council includes both the letter of the law, ie the regulation itself, as well as an explanatory analysis that is basically a legally worthless sidebar comment. The regulatory analysis contradicts the body of the regulation itself in at least half a dozen places.

I dont know anything about your cannon, but I dont see how if it shoots cannon balls that it wouldnt have met the definition of firearm in the criminal code.

It has a barrel.
It fires a shot capable of serious bodily harm.
 
Cameron SS said:
You are incorrect. The OIC does not create any new category of firearm. The criminal code definition of firearm is in the legislation and it can not be changed by regulation. What was NOT a firearm last month is not a firearm this month.

The phrase "creates two new categories of firearms" does not appear in the regulations.

Neither does the word 'banned' appear in the regulation.

Note that the order in council includes both the letter of the law, ie the regulation itself, as well as an explanatory analysis that is basically a legally worthless sidebar comment. The regulatory analysis contradicts the body of the regulation itself in at least half a dozen places.

I dont know anything about your cannon, but I dont see how if it shoots cannon balls that it wouldnt have met the definition of firearm in the criminal code.

It has a barrel.
It fires a shot capable of serious bodily harm.
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https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms

https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/page-2.html#h-1024358

fixed
 
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Well let me just say that I am a Verifier and have spoken with the CFC and a tech.at the CFC. Antiques are not going to be effected by the 20mm prohobition with a order in council the firearm in question must be listed I know its a little confusing it stated 20mm then it lists all the 20 mm that are to be prohibited after that as the must be individually listed for an order in council to be banned your antique class Cannons will not be banned nore antique blunderbusses etc. stop panicking
 
DEZ said:
Well let me just say that I am a Verifier and have spoken with the CFC and a tech.at the CFC. Antiques are not going to be effected by the 20mm prohobition with a order in council the firearm in question must be listed I know its a little confusing it stated 20mm then it lists all the 20 mm that are to be prohibited after that as the must be individually listed for an order in council to be banned your antique class Cannons will not be banned nore antique blunderbusses etc. stop panicking
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Suggesting that if its not listed than its not prohib is incorrect. The prohibition is on firearms with bore dias >20mm. The list is just a list of examples. If the list on its own was the substance of the prohibition, than specifying a bore diameter at all would be redundant. If the operative was to prohibit only such firearms on the list that have an excess bore diameter, then it is incorrect worded to achieve that effect.

It is also misleading to suggest that antiqies are unaffected by the regulations. Its true that newly prohibited antiques are still legal to own, but if they are now prohibited then they must be stored and transported in accordance with the regulations for prohibited firearms.

This is the same CFC that brought you the dual use magazine nonsense, the 80% lower nonsense, the electronic ATT nonsense, the range membership requirement nonsense, and a litany of other patently false legal interpretations.

You are absolutely correct though, that dispite further liberal government incompetence and CFC cluelessness, there is no reason to panic. Life will go on. This will all get sorted out eventually.
 
DEZ said:
Well let me just say that I am a Verifier and have spoken with the CFC and a tech.at the CFC. Antiques are not going to be effected by the 20mm prohobition with a order in council the firearm in question must be listed I know its a little confusing it stated 20mm then it lists all the 20 mm that are to be prohibited after that as the must be individually listed for an order in council to be banned your antique class Cannons will not be banned nore antique blunderbusses etc. stop panicking
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An antique used in the commission of a crime falls under the category of a firearm. Amnesty was granted for those who possessed a firearms license prior to enactment . Antiques do not require a firearms license.
 
Ex3dy said:
An antique used in the commission of a crime falls under the category of a firearm. Amnesty was granted for those who possessed a firearms license prior to enactment . Antiques do not require a firearms license.
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but antiques are still a " device"

I still think we will be in trouble, maybe not now, but down the road with the way things are worded
 
DEZ said:
Well let me just say that I am a Verifier and have spoken with the CFC and a tech.at the CFC. Antiques are not going to be effected by the 20mm prohobition with a order in council the firearm in question must be listed I know its a little confusing it stated 20mm then it lists all the 20 mm that are to be prohibited after that as the must be individually listed for an order in council to be banned your antique class Cannons will not be banned nore antique blunderbusses etc. stop panicking
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There is a weak point in what the CFC has said, and that is that the RCMP have a habit of changing how they interpret the written law. For example, the written law says that an antique cartridge pistol has to be made before 1898 and not be one of several named calibers. It says nothing about when that caliber was installed. For quite a few years, as long as the gun met the two criteria of age and caliber, it was classed as an antique. Now the RCMP says that the gun has to have been made in a antique caliber. Also the law says that a magazine designed for a 22 rimfire rifle does not have a limit on cartridge capacity but a magazine for all semi auto handguns cannot exceed 10 shots. The RCMP now says that the 22 rimfire magazine for one of the Ruger 22 rifles cannot exceed 10 shots because it fits a Ruger handgun made after the rifle and only in a very limited number.

My point is that the RCMP appears to be free to interpret and enforce the law any way they choose. It would not surprise me if the RCMP waited for a year or two and then decided to extend the definition of prohibited firearms and devices to antiques and model cannons etc

cheers mooncoon
 
Beater said:
but antiques are still a " device"

I still think we will be in trouble, maybe not now, but down the road with the way things are worded
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But the device must be listed orders in council can only be used to ban specific items thats why all the AR15s they could find are listed same with the bore diameter thats why they listed 20mm and then the list of banned devices and firearms the PTRD -41 IS LISTED AS WELL AS THE LAHTI L-39 etc. there are no flintlock blunderbuss listed orders in council must have specific items listed otherwise its legislation and that must pass through parliament
 
DEZ said:
But the device must be listed orders in council can only be used to ban specific items thats why all the AR15s they could find are listed same with the bore diameter thats why they listed 20mm and then the list of banned devices and firearms the PTRD -41 IS LISTED AS WELL AS THE LAHTI L-39 etc. there are no flintlock blunderbuss listed orders in council must have specific items listed otherwise its legislation and that must pass through parliament
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They banned >20 mm Bore Dia. OR 10,000 J ME. PTRD-41 is an example of a 10,000 J firearm. The prohibition is on the technical characteristic, IE bore dia. or ME. The list is just illustrative and is not a closed group. "and includes" means the following are included, but does not mean "only the following" are included.

OICs do NOT need to have specific items listed. The power to prescribe into the prohibited class is very broad, and such prohibitions can be by as broad as all firearms, or can be as narrow as a single firearm called out by serial number. And the power to prescribe objects to be prohibited devices is equally broad. They could have prescribed each nut and bolt and spring of the AR-15 to be a prohibited device if they saw fit. Their only obligation in passing regulations is to stay within the statutory purpose and to not violate charter rights. Fortunately for us they failed to do either, and this should be a pretty easy case to win.
 
Cameron SS said:
They banned >20 mm Bore Dia. OR 10,000 J ME. PTRD-41 is an example of a 10,000 J firearm. The prohibition is on the technical characteristic, IE bore dia. or ME. The list is just illustrative and is not a closed group. "and includes" means the following are included, but does not mean "only the following" are included.

OICs do NOT need to have specific items listed. The power to prescribe into the prohibited class is very broad, and such prohibitions can be by as broad as all firearms, or can be as narrow as a single firearm called out by serial number. And the power to prescribe objects to be prohibited devices is equally broad. They could have prescribed each nut and bolt and spring of the AR-15 to be a prohibited device if they saw fit. Their only obligation in passing regulations is to stay within the statutory purpose and to not violate charter rights. Fortunately for us they failed to do either, and this should be a pretty easy case to win.
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this right here. and what mooncoon said above. I hate to say it but it is all about interpretation. ofcorse they are going to tell us don't worry we aren't comeing for the antiques, until they do.
 
I hope they do, not because I want to see the govt get peoples toys but because there are too many people that are ok with the ban because it doesn't affect their collection. Hard to be in this together when most are not.
 
Stray03 said:
I hope they do, not because I want to see the govt get peoples toys but because there are too many people that are ok with the ban because it doesn't affect their collection. Hard to be in this together when most are not.
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I think there is going to have to be some sort of qualification to the prohibition besides bore diameter. Otherwise, it will include paintball guns, flare guns and line throwing guns besides others that I mentioned earlier.

cheers mooncoon
 
Cameron SS said:
You are incorrect. The OIC does not create any new category of firearm. The criminal code definition of firearm is in the legislation and it can not be changed by regulation. What was NOT a firearm last month is not a firearm this month.
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An empty, disposable fiberglass and aluminium M72 launcher was not a firearm last month (or I don't think) and is a prohibited device today. How does that work with your explanation?
 
antiqueguy said:
I think everyone needs to stop calling out stuff not mentioned in this ban remember we have people around that can see this stuff who are not on our side.
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I heard some History professor ranting on TV that they forgot to ban the deadly SKS........If we let them ban our black guns they will eventually be coming for the rest like they did all over Europe.
 
bogusiii said:
An empty, disposable fiberglass and aluminium M72 launcher was not a firearm last month (or I don't think) and is a prohibited device today. How does that work with your explanation?
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exactly. the gov will decide whats prohib and whats not. here today gone tomorrow paint a piece of aluminum tube green and put a serial number on it, they will find a way
 
DEZ said:
But the device must be listed orders in council can only be used to ban specific items thats why all the AR15s they could find are listed same with the bore diameter thats why they listed 20mm and then the list of banned devices and firearms the PTRD -41 IS LISTED AS WELL AS THE LAHTI L-39 etc. there are no flintlock blunderbuss listed orders in council must have specific items listed otherwise its legislation and that must pass through parliament
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Not even close. For example the AR15 was restricted by name and several models listed. Over the years the RCMP added the hundreds of variants currently listed in the new OIC. They were all given FRT entries as restricted just like the parent entry.
The same will be done here. Do you really think you will be able to build a 25mm cannon of your own design and have it non restricted because it was not listed?
 
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