Trudeau and Blair BAN 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge SHOTGUNS!

Bill Blair also said this in Twitter before he deleted it..

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So don't believe a word this drunkard has posted on his Twitter. You can tell that he is an imbecile by the wording in the OIC, not to mention how he stammers in conversations when hes challenged on a topic.

#### Bill Blair.
 

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To all the people saying oh they would never measure it that way. That would be stupid. I am sure no one thought that anyone would be so stupid as to list a standard .22LR rifle screwed into a couple pieces of plastic as a "Variant" and make it a Prohibited firearm. But here we are.
 
It's really telling to see all the people saying "OK guys, this is too divisive stop talking about shotguns". For some reason (self interest?) They don't realize or can't admit that this "mistake" is one of the cracks in the legislation that may help sink it. A tweet by a POS will not hold up in court if the legislation can be interpreted a different way regardless of the intent of the legislation. 12g shotguns with removable chokes are banned now let's fight this OIC together.
 
auracle said:
Yeah...thats the problem. They really are clueless
Click to expand...

Not that clueless in the bigger picture though.


Long listen, but the plan is basically laid out here.

If you want to hear Bills plan..here it is. ht tps://uncommons.ca/2020/05/07/episode-14-gun-control-with-bill-blair/

Note. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith is the Liberal Member of Parliament for Beaches-East York

Essentially, evergreen the upcoming legislation and add the rest of semi-autos, villify and put out of business most of the gun industry.

Likely legislation that will force municipalities to opt out of handgun ban, explore central storage (as a generous compromise) once again for all those guns too dangerous to be held in private hands. Get rid of current rules for limiting magazines to 5 rounds and outright ban them.

Create a wedge issue(they don't have pot this time) in accordance with Gerald Butts master plan that will force the CPC to respond to their base, and be used to further Liberal gains in Urban Centers and Quebec.

Continue to attempt to divide fire arms community.

Create conditions for election...before the bills need to be paid and the economy tanks.

CPC is our only chance.
 
Longbow said:
Not that clueless in the bigger picture though.


Long listen, but the plan is basically laid out here.

If you want to hear Bills plan..here it is. ht tps://uncommons.ca/2020/05/07/episode-14-gun-control-with-bill-blair/

Note. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith is the Liberal Member of Parliament for Beaches-East York

Essentially, evergreen the upcoming legislation and add the rest of semi-autos, villify and put out of business most of the gun industry.

Likely legislation that will force municipalities to opt out of handgun ban, explore central storage (as a generous compromise) once again for all those guns too dangerous to be held in private hands. Get rid of current rules for limiting magazines to 5 rounds and outright ban them.

Create a wedge issue(they don't have pot this time) in accordance with Gerald Butts master plan that will force the CPC to respond to their base, and be used to further Liberal gains in Urban Centers and Quebec.

Continue to attempt to divide fire arms community.

Create conditions for election...before the bills need to be paid and the economy tanks.

CPC is our only chance.
Click to expand...

This is why I'm leaning towards this OIC not being actual slop, but deliberately crafted slop, meant to divide and conquer us. I'm still rereading it daily wondering what other traps we're missing.
 
Spinoza said:
I’m a retired lawyer with a fair bit of experience relevant to this thread. Let me say that I’m a long time firearms owner, and that I don’t at all agree with the OIC here, which will I think, do nothing whatever to advance public safety, and which I think was instead drafted with purely, and coldly, political motives. I also think it less than well thought out, inelegantly drafted, contains some clear mistakes, and shouldn’t have been put in force by the route adopted. I hope the present government pays a political price for it. However the notion that it turns shotguns into prohibited weapons is not, in my view, correct, and advancing that argument does not, in my view, help our cause. At best, it’s a distraction; at worst, it makes us look foolish.

This notion started as a result of an opinion which I have read. I do not know the motives behind the writing of that opinion; I do disagree with the conclusion. While hardly necessary: I am not now a practicing lawyer, and what follows is but my opinion, and not legal advice.

The opinion upon which this whole mess is based has, as its core premise, the following definition: “The bore of a firearm barrel is the largest internal diameter of the barrel tube through which the projectile travels.” (Emphasis added.)This is stated without any authority whatever. The core question is: is this correct? Given that the conclusions of the opinion depend entirely upon the acceptance of the definition, it’s a tad strange that it is presented without giving any authority.

Be that as it may. How do you interpret s. 95 which, subject to some exceptions, makes “(a)ny firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater...” a prohibited weapon.? Obviously, how you determine the bore diameter is pretty important. Note that ‘bore’ in “bore diameter” doesn’t have the same meaning as ‘bore’ in the definition quoted above. Here ‘bore’ simply means the interior of the barrel, and prohibits barrels whose measured internal diameter is 20mm or more. So the question is: where do you measure it? If the bore is of constant diameter, no problem (leaving aside land to land or grove to grove issues). But if it isn’t, do you measure at the smallest bit, the largest bit, or take some average? The terms ‘bore’ and ‘bore diameter’ aren’t defined in the OIC, the regulations, or Firearms Act. So we have to look at normal usage, and the legislative intent, as shown, among other things, by the relevant bits of the language of the OIC itself.

Let’s do both. To start with legislative intent: is the intent to prohibit weapons with large bores, because they are a danger in and of themselves, or is it to prohibit weapons capable of firing projectiles with certain characteristics? The objectives stated in the OIC are to prohibit firearms “...characterized by their design and their capability of inflicting significant harm....” We can also look to the particularized list, which includes anti-tank rifles, mortars, missile launchers and the like. Not a single firearm on the list fires a projectile less than 20mm in diameter, and all of the intended projectiles are capable of inflicting more damage than your average rifle or shotgun. So the question is: is the intent of the legislation to prohibit weapons capable of firing projectiles larger than 20mm in diameter, which would entail measuring bore diameter at the smallest bit, or is it to ban an Elmer Fudd style .22 rifle, manufactured with a flared muzzle exceeding 20mm, although the rifle is incapable of firing anything other than a .22? That would be a silly result, and isn’t consistent with the stated objectives. There’s a principle of legislative interpretation that you don’t adopt a meaning that gives a silly result when a meaning that doesn’t give a silly result is available. Accordingly, ‘bore diameter’ means as measured at the smallest point if the bore has a varying diameter.

What about normal usage? While hardly precisely defined terms of art, ‘bore’ and ‘calibre’ are sometimes defined such that for a particular barrel ‘bore’ is the inside diameter of the barrel, and ‘calibre’ is the outside diameter of a projectile that barrel will fire, and that calibre roughly equals bore. For obvious reasons, if the barrel is not of constant diameter, the bore is the smallest diameter of the barrel. That usage is common enough that defining ‘bore’ as the “...largest internal diameter of the barrel tube...” is clearly wrong.

Finally, given that the OIC effectively creates a crime, and is therefore to be strictly construed in favour of an accused, there is simply no way on earth given the above, and given other factors - such as whether the language is the section can even be applied to shotguns given their barrels are measured by gauge, not by bore diameter, and given that the Minister responsible says otherwise, that any court would find a 12 gauge shotgun is captured by the language of this OIC, or that any Crown would approve a charge in the first place.

A final point: the language in the OIC which effectively makes some firearms prohibited starts off with “the firearms...” or “any firearm.... ” In other words, if something isn’t a firearm, the language that follows doesn’t apply, and ‘firearm’ does have a legislative definition. So because a flare gun isn’t a firearm, the OIC doesn’t apply however big the bore. So too with air soft guns or the like. Just because it has a name that occurs in a list, it doesn’t become a prohibited firearm, unless it was a firearm in the first place. To put it another way: the OIC only changes the classification of some firearms; it doesn’t make anything a firearm that wasn’t so in the first place. I can name my dog AR-15. The OIC doesn’t thereby make him into a prohibited weapon.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to clarify a couple things on your well written post.

You mention no firearm above 20mm can fire a projectile less than 20mm, which is not true.
Many of these can utilize sub calibers to shoot smaller projectiles.
The military and civilians use these because 84mm rockets can be hard to come by.

The .22 that Elmer Fudd has with the flared muzzle, isn’t part of the argument for obvious reasons.
The RCMP have never considered muzzle breaks or extended chokes as part of barrel length.

So in your opinion, if I had a 12” barrelled open cylinder shotgun and took a file or drill to increased the diameter of the barrel above 20mm. From the muzzle to halfway down the barrel, have I now created a prohibited device?

I know that sounds crazy but the way I read the OIC, the answer would be yes. Prohibited device.

If the answer is yes, How would drilling out a choke be any different?
 
TIGERTACTICAL said:
Just wanted to clarify a couple things on your well written post.

You mention no firearm above 20mm can fire a projectile less than 20mm, which is not true.
Many of these can utilize sub calibers to shoot smaller projectiles.
The military and civilians use these because 84mm rockets can be hard to come by.

The .22 that Elmer Fudd has with the flared muzzle, isn’t part of the argument for obvious reasons.
The RCMP have never considered muzzle breaks or extended chokes as part of barrel length.

So in your opinion, if I had a 12” barrelled open cylinder shotgun and took a file or drill to increased the diameter of the barrel above 20mm. From the muzzle to halfway down the barrel, have I now created a prohibited device?

I know that sounds crazy but the way I read the OIC, the answer would be yes. Prohibited device.

If the answer is yes, How would drilling out a choke be any different?
Click to expand...

OK, I am not a lawyer so

A final point: the language in the OIC which effectively makes some firearms prohibited starts off with “the firearms...” or “any firearm.... ” In other words, if something isn’t a firearm, the language that follows doesn’t apply, and ‘firearm’ does have a legislative definition.

"Firerarms upper receiver" now prohibited?
 
TIGERTACTICAL said:
Just wanted to clarify a couple things on your well written post.

You mention no firearm above 20mm can fire a projectile less than 20mm, which is not true.
Many of these can utilize sub calibers to shoot smaller projectiles.
The military and civilians use these because 84mm rockets can be hard to come by.

The .22 that Elmer Fudd has with the flared muzzle, isn’t part of the argument for obvious reasons.
The RCMP have never considered muzzle breaks or extended chokes as part of barrel length.

So in your opinion, if I had a 12” barrelled open cylinder shotgun and took a file or drill to increased the diameter of the barrel above 20mm. From the muzzle to halfway down the barrel, have I now created a prohibited device?

I know that sounds crazy but the way I read the OIC, the answer would be yes. Prohibited device.

If the answer is yes, How would drilling out a choke be any different?
Click to expand...

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't modifying a firearm land you in trouble here regardless?
 
Badhabit76 said:
Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't modifying a firearm land you in trouble here regardless?
Click to expand...

That mostly has to do with barrel lengths, overall lengths and bore diameter (Converting a gun to .25 or .32, for instance).
One of the more egregious examples, off the top of my head, is categorizing revolver carbines as Restricted because you COULD cut it down into a handgun, despite that itself being illegal.
 
Spinoza said:
I’m a retired lawyer with a fair bit of experience relevant to this thread.
the OIC here, ...
do nothing whatever to advance public safety, and which I think was instead drafted with purely, and coldly, political motives.
..
To start with legislative intent: is the intent to prohibit weapons with large bores, because they are a danger in and of themselves, or is it to prohibit weapons capable of firing projectiles with certain characteristics? The objectives stated in the OIC are to prohibit firearms “...characterized by their design and their capability of inflicting significant harm....”into a prohibited weapon.
Click to expand...

So, Mr. Lawyer (Ret), from the correct observation and statement "nothing whatever to advance public safety" one's jumping to the acceptance of the claim that

the legislative intent "prohibit firearms... their capability of inflicting significant harm" ...

really? may be it's something totally different, like prohibiting as much as possible? or mudding the rules as much as possible so authorities will be able confiscate as many as they manage?


May be the lawyer's logic allows such a logical equilibristics, but common sense and the logic of mathematician cry "Does not compute!!!!"


Only 2 things will be accepted by any judge if the matter drops at his/hers bench:

1) Wording in OIC and 2) prosecution RCMP expert's statement what was the value of their measurement.

That's it, nothing else will matter .. not SAAMI papers, not CBSA books, not any drunkard imbecile's twitters, not any Jumping Sock Monkey's bleatings...
 
Last edited:
Latest from CSSA

This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.


The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.


RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.


See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:


h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk


That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B.iii
 
CosmiC10R said:
Latest from CSSA

This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.


The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.


RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.


See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:


h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk


That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B.iii
Click to expand...






For Immediate Release


RCMP prohibits first 12-Gauge Shotgun with 20mm Bore Law - CBSA Memorandum backs Firearms Lawyers on Shotgun Ban

May 8, 2020



OSHAWA: On May 5, 2020, CSSA and CSAAA issued a joint news release showing Justin Trudeau and Bill Blair – either through gross ignorance or gross incompetence – banned 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns under the 20mm maximum bore diameter restriction in SOR/2020-96.i

Minister Blair’s denied this via social media, saying,
“Both 10 and 12 gauge shotguns are under the 20mm provision, and thus not subject to the prohibition. Our government is taking action to protect Canadians by banning assault-style weapons – not those used for hunting.”ii

“The truth matters,” Minister Blair said.

We agree 100%.

The truth matters.

This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.

The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.

RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.

See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk

That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B.iii

Solomon Friedman LL.B., another respected lawyer well-versed in firearms law, agrees with Mr. Burlew’s opinion.

“Your standard 12-gauge shotgun, most people think it has a bore of 18.5 millimeters,” he told CBC Radio, “but modern shotguns are actually over-bored – they’re larger than 18.5 millimeters to allow you to screw in attachments called chokes. It’s very common. Most modern shotguns are made that way and that they are almost all larger than 20 millimeters.”iv

If Minister Blair doesn’t want to listen to the opinion of two experts in Canadian firearms law, perhaps he will agree with the experts in one of the agencies he oversees.

The Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) Memorandum D19-13-2, issued May 29, 2019, defines BORE as:

the inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels.v

By the CBSA’s definition, it may be all 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns – not just those with removable chokes – are now Prohibited firearms because they do not consider the forcing cone, the “throat” of the barrel, which exceeds the 20 mm maximum bore diameter specified in SOR/2020-96.

Will Minister Blair is support the CBSA opinion that meshes with two of Canada’s top legal experts in firearms law?

Or will he toss them under the bus because he can’t admit he made a huge mistake?

We demand Minister Bill Blair immediately rescind SOR/2020-96 until such time as he can figure out what he’s doing.

It’s clear he hasn’t figured out what he’s doing yet, and all Canadian hunters and sport shooters may pay the price for his incompetence.

Fixing this particular (among many) problem requires the addition of two little words: “except shotguns.” That it is so easy to fix yet Blair refuses to make the change, tells us the wording was intentional. Minister Bill Blair promised to call us the next day to clarify the OiC. Two and a half days later... we're still waiting. More to come. - TB

-30-

i https://myemail.constantcontact.com...GUNS-.html?soid=1124731702303&aid=qVZNyF4JSg4

ii https://www.facebook.com/williamsterlingblair/posts/2636002193286684

iii https://s3.amazonaws.com/CSSA/PDF/SOR2020-96-CSSA-Legal-Opinion-re-12-gauge-shotguns.pdf

iv https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1734575683738

v CBSA Memorandum D19-13-2 | Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices - Page 2. https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.pdf | HTML Version: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html

For more information call:

Tony Bernardo
Executive Director
905-571-2150
info@cssa-cila.org




Canadian Shooting Sports
1143 Wentworth Street West, Unit 204
Oshawa, ON L1J 8P7
Toll Free (888) 873-4339
Email: info@cssa-cila.org
 
CosmiC10R said:
Latest from CSSA

This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.


The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.


RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.


See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:


h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk


That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B.iii
Click to expand...

that happened a lot faster than I expected
 
Mds694 said:
It’s one thing to say that without a legal definition of bore and how it is measured that there is some level uncertainty in what firearms it pertains too. It’s another to start a thread stating “Trudeau and Blair BAN 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge SHOTGUNS!” That’s all for now folks.
Click to expand...

check the latest email blast from CSSA quoted near end of post. I will be honest, that happened WAY faster than I thought it would. And not as expected.

Boltgun
 
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