First Centrefire PRS purchase.

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RobHL

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Hey everyone,

Been shooting rimfire PRS for a while now and looking to transcend into the centrefire realm. Unfortunately I don't have the $$$ to build off of a custom action so I'm likely looking at picking up a factory rifle to get me in the game and going from there. Wondering what everyone's experiences are that can lend to some good advice. I was leaning toward .223 as its less expensive and will allow me to practice more often, although a buddy of mine shoots .308 and we had talked about going in on reloading components together.

I'm not sure the exact distance I'll be able to shoot out to but I suspect it'll be somewhere in the 700/800 range. I've looked at a few different rifles, including the Ruger Predator and Savage offerings. Curious as to which route may be best. I like to tinker and would prefer the option for AICS mags down the road. However I have heard that Remington quality has sunk as of late and would probably steer clear if that's the case.

Thanks and hope to hear from you guys!
 
I wouldn’t recommend a .223. Not that you couldn’t shoot with it but it will not be ideal especially in wind.
I would recommend if starting out and want good factory ammo I would pick a 6.5 Creedmoor
Couple options for the rifle You will want to look for is heavy barrel and threaded muzzle for a brake
Rifles to look for (search used as well)
Remington 700 - Magpul Tactical would give you a great starting point and a platform that you can build from easily and find many used parts for
Tikka CTR
Ruger Precision Rifle
I would also recommend (if we ever get back out) to come and watch a match and see what others are using and what you may want to look for
 
Look into Tikka. Good factory rifles, better QC overall them Remington or Savage. Aftermarket support for them is growing.
Bergara is another option, basically a better R700, so lots of aftermarket support.

I shoot .223 in club level matches, at the shorter distances you really aren't giving up much. Plus being cheaper to shoot means you can shoot more.
 
A Tikka CTR in 6.5 creedmoor is the easy button. Good trigger, decent aftermarket support, plays well with chassis systems and AICS mags and they all shoot. Add a heathen brake and a MDT XRS or KRG Bravo and you could win matches all over North America with it.

The Bergara HMR for a few bucks more would also be an excellent plug and play prs rig

If you plan to handload, the same rifle in 223 will be ok and with double the barrel life but as posted above you will struggle in the wind much past 400.

the Ruger Predator is an ok shooter but has a pretty light barrel. Recent Savage and Remington rifles have not impressed me accuracy-wise.
 
Alpheus said:
Look into Tikka. Good factory rifles, better QC overall them Remington or Savage. Aftermarket support for them is growing.
Bergara is another option, basically a better R700, so lots of aftermarket support.

I shoot .223 in club level matches, at the shorter distances you really aren't giving up much. Plus being cheaper to shoot means you can shoot more.
Click to expand...

Thats why I was leaning toward. 223. Cheaper to shoot and would be a good way for me to learn wind.

If I do decide to go that route, are there any .223 rifles you'd recommend? I know its cheap, but whats the Savage Axis like? Or any of their other offerings in .223?

If I go bigger then I'll likely lean toward a Tikka or the RPR. I'll just be waiting for budget to allow.
 
Fore300 said:
I wouldn’t recommend a .223. Not that you couldn’t shoot with it but it will not be ideal especially in wind.
I would recommend if starting out and want good factory ammo I would pick a 6.5 Creedmoor
Couple options for the rifle You will want to look for is heavy barrel and threaded muzzle for a brake
Rifles to look for (search used as well)
Remington 700 - Magpul Tactical would give you a great starting point and a platform that you can build from easily and find many used parts for
Tikka CTR
Ruger Precision Rifle
I would also recommend (if we ever get back out) to come and watch a match and see what others are using and what you may want to look for
Click to expand...

The Remington 700 Magpul actually caught my eye a while ago when I saw it over at Bullseye. It looks pretty good for the price. Although I am partial to the RPR as I have its younger brother the RPR rimfire.
 
Look for a tikka HB varmint on the EE
Put it into a krg bravo stock. Takes aics mags, has a better grip angle than the magpul hunter stock. The tikka has a 1:8 twist which can handle the heavier bullets so if you handload you can get some better performance out of it
 
1 in 8 twist is good advise. I have a Tikka Sporter in .223 but 1 in 12, hates heavy bullets. Tikka only has 5 rd factory mags, unless you go CTR, and they're $100 ish to buy.
I have a Ruger Scout in .223, 1 in 8 loves 69 gr ammo. Not exactly precision but I'm curious to see what it can do out to 600m, gonna try it on a Sat sometime in Pet. for shirts and giggles.
Bullseyelondon has the Howa in .223. 1:8 twist. Nice Chassis too. $1500ish Check it out on YouTube. $65 for a 10 rd mag there also.
If you buy a hunting stock, like I did with a Tikka Varmint I just spent 1600$ on a new chassis.+mags etc.
It's said here time and again, buy once cry once.

Cheers
 
The first thing to do is make an honest estimate of how much you'll actually shoot (as in your yearly round count). If you think that number will be sub-3000 (50+rds each and every week), get a 6.5 Creedmoor (R700, Tikka, Bergara, Howa, etc). There really is no better calibre for a do all, entry into PRS rifle. Despite the preference for 6mms, a top shooter on his game can win a match anywhere shooting a 6.5.

Now if you think you'll be shooting much over 3000rds then maybe consider a .308 (for longer barrel life) or a .223 (longer barrel life and cheaper cost/rd). Both of those come with some drawbacks though. For the .308 it's increased recoil and more wind drift (than a 6.5) and for the .223 it's quite a bit more wind drift and occasionally a harder time spotting misses (unless you can watch your own trace, which takes some practice).

Even at 500 yards a .223 get blown around quite a bit. I shoot quite a bit of .223 for practice (about 7500rds in the past year) and on gusty days on smaller targets you can really get raped. On one of my practice targets at 445 yards the drift for a 5mph wind with my .223 (75gr BTHP @2920) is 0.6 mils which is almost double what my 6.5 creed (140ELDM @ 2820) needs (0.35mil). That's not an insignificant difference and we aren't exactly talking long range.

If you do go with a .223, make sure to get a 1:8 (or preferably 1:7 but dunno about factory availability) so that you can push 75gr class bullets. That way you shoot in Tac class but get much better performance than with the lighter weight bullets. I'd suggest trying out the 75gr ELDMs, they shoot great out of my barrel and have a very decent BC. The 75gr BTHPs also shoot well but don't have nearly the BC of the ELDMs. They are cheaper though hence why I use them for practice. In my rifle the same load (25.0gr of Varget) gets me 2920 out of both those bullets and the same poi so you can always train with the cheaper ones and shoot the pricier bullets in matches.
 
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Been shooting the 223 in competition for a number of years (F class and PRS). With proper loading, it will hold its own against many other chamberings out to 800yds. Wind reading is wind reading. If you dont know which way the wind is blowing, super zapper is not going to save you. Once you learn how to read the wind, adjustments are simply a number.

If you have competed in rimfire PRS out to 300m on a breezy day, the 223 will be a lazer.

High BC set ups obviously make this process alot easier but if you are shooting in the bottom quartile with an accurate 223, consider better skills before blaming the set up.

Unless the rules have changed, with a 223 you are competing against the 308 in TACTICAL. Inside 800yds, I would much rather take the lower recoil of the 223.. .and that is what I did. Got me on the podium at my first Tactical match... and that score put me squarely into the top 10 overall. The 223 is no slouch.

The bigger issue is the lack of competitors. You should do some research on this as tactical isn't popular at all in BC anymore (don't know about AB). And why I moved to Open. I still shoot a 22cal... just a bit more horsepower in the 22 Creedmoor... ironically, my velocties are very similar... just pushing a heavier bullet.

Wrt to rifle, there are a number of very inexpensive yet competitive set ups. Donor factory actions, chassis/stocks, prefit match barrels.. all lead to a fully competitive rig for less then what some custom actions cost bare. So you really don't need to spend a bunch of money, unless you want to.

back to the chambering... if the goal IS to stay in Tactical, distances are moderate, go 223 and have at it. Recoil management is such a big part of PRS that I can't see how you don't drop points cause you can't spot your hits with a 308... sooner or later.

If the long term plan is to get into Open, start there now. All you need is a moderate pressure set up... that means throttle way down which conserves bore life, usually improves accuracy, definitely aids in recoil management, and lowers component consumption. The cost to change stuff over eventually leads to a 2nd complete rifle so your costs go up a bunch.

The most economical route in the long run is run the chamber you want to progress to, throttle back, learn it every which way, and invest in more barrels.

And there are many chamberings for Open that are not a whole lot more expensive to run vs a 223 at over throttle... which you will more then likely do.

If I can help, pm or email...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Been shooting the 223 in competition for a number of years (F class and PRS). With proper loading, it will hold its own against many other chamberings out to 800yds. Wind reading is wind reading. If you dont know which way the wind is blowing, super zapper is not going to save you. Once you learn how to read the wind, adjustments are simply a number.
Click to expand...

This is simply not true in PRS with 90 second stages and no hit indicators.

A 223 with a Tac class legal bullet at Tac class legal velocity will make you run twice the wind budget a 6.5 or 6mm will allow you to.

I've cleaned 10 round stages at 450 yards with every single hit on the left or right edge of the plate using a fast and high BC 6.5 bullet. If you think a 223 would have hung with that you are dreaming.

In puffy switching wind, a super zapper danged well will save you.
 
Ok.... 223, 75gr Berger VLD at 2900fps... and the Dasher 105gr Hybrid at 2850fps. Pretty achieveable numbers??? You are free to cook the numbers whichever way you want to make your story work but I am just going by bread and butter common results that shooters actually run. Data from JBM so you can confirm the numbers if you want.

450yds 223 full value drift at 10mph 1mil.... 6D 0.8mil

800yds 223 2.2mil.... 6D 1.6mil

at 450yds each MPH misjudged with the 223 is 0.1mils.... in a 6D 0.08mils.... at 800yds, 223 0.22mils... 6D 0.16mils

So with a 2mph midjudge in wind, extra drift at 450yds 223 0.2mils.... 6D, 0.16mils.... at 800yds 0.44mils... 6D 0.32mils... interesting numbers... no????

Now of course, you can fudge these numbers to whatever floats your boat but I have to believe that you aren't going to miss the wind change by 10mph? And if you do on a regular basis.... well,

I believe that the typical target is around 0.5 to 0.8mils... right? so at 450yds, it is 5 to 8mph wide for the 223... and 6.25 to 10 mph for the 6D.

At 800yds, 223 - target is now 2.3 to 3.6mph... and the 6D 3.1 to 5mph wide ... if you dont get it, this is the amount of wind drift for a hold on the target edge and still stay inside the target.

if you can ball park the wind correctly with the 6D to hit... why can't you do the same with the 223?

Are there lower drift options? of course.... but that comes with a host of negative variables... YMMV
Jerry

PS.. now if the stage requires you to move or swing something, well, bigger can be very helpful...
 
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rgv said:
This is simply not true in PRS with 90 second stages and no hit indicators.

A 223 with a Tac class legal bullet at Tac class legal velocity will make you run twice the wind budget a 6.5 or 6mm will allow you to.

I've cleaned 10 round stages at 450 yards with every single hit on the left or right edge of the plate using a fast and high BC 6.5 bullet. If you think a 223 would have hung with that you are dreaming.

In puffy switching wind, a super zapper danged well will save you.
Click to expand...

^This. Having twice the "fudge factor" with regards to windage will 100% get you more hits in switch winds. the world isn't exactly full of people who can (actually) call the wind within 1mph...

Also, there is a huge difference between a match that might have a couple shots at 600, vs one that goes out to 800, vs one that goes out to 1200...
 
Mystic Precision said:
Ok.... 223, 75gr Berger VLD at 2900fps... and the Dasher 105gr Hybrid at 2850fps. Pretty achieveable numbers??? You are free to cook the numbers whichever way you want to make your story work but I am just going by bread and butter common results that shooters actually run. Data from JBM so you can confirm the numbers if you want.

450yds 223 full value drift at 10mph 1mil.... 6D 0.8mil

800yds 223 2.2mil.... 6D 1.6mil

at 450yds each MPH misjudged with the 223 is 0.1mils.... in a 6D 0.08mils.... at 800yds, 223 0.22mils... 6D 0.16mils

So with a 2mph midjudge in wind, extra drift at 450yds 223 0.2mils.... 6D, 0.16mils.... at 800yds 0.44mils... 6D 0.32mils... interesting numbers... no????

Now of course, you can fudge these numbers to whatever floats your boat but I have to believe that you aren't going to miss the wind change by 10mph? And if you do on a regular basis.... well,

I believe that the typical target is around 0.5 to 0.8mils... right? so at 450yds, it is 5 to 8mph wide for the 223... and 6.25 to 10 mph for the 6D.

At 800yds, 223 - target is now 2.3 to 3.6mph... and the 6D 3.1 to 5mph wide ... if you dont get it, this is the amount of wind drift for a hold on the target edge and still stay inside the target.

if you can ball park the wind correctly with the 6D to hit... why can't you do the same with the 223?

Are there lower drift options? of course.... but that comes with a host of negative variables... YMMV
Jerry

PS.. now if the stage requires you to move or swing something, well, bigger can be very helpful...
Click to expand...

JBM comparisons in steady state 3:00/9:00 winds don’t tell the real story.

In puffy and switching wind, the 105 dasher will be twice as forgiving as a 75 223
 
Run a real world comparison someday... you will find the results very interesting.

And yes, I most certainly have... in F class. For mid range matches, watch out for the mouse guns.... and I shoot in some absurd winds.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Run a real world comparison someday... you will find the results very interesting.

And yes, I most certainly have... in F class. For mid range matches, watch out for the mouse guns.... and I shoot in some absurd winds.

Jerry
Click to expand...


Lol thanks I have too. And we don’t have wind flags, sighters, fixed/known distances, one minute per shot allotted time, or indicated hits like you do in belly benchrest.
 
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For sure, but the information or lack thereof is equal for all shooters. In FTR when I was shooting the 223, I competed with 308s that didn't have a limit on bullets. Mostly we shoot on the same relay, at the same time, so we experience the same conditions.

If you can read the conditions, you can read the conditions... if you can't, you can't.. and if you can't read the conditions at all, what benefit does another 1 or 2 MPH of reduced drift help?

Obviously, higher BC options are more forgiving in variable winds... but if this was the most important benefit, why the dominance of small case 6mms? At least that was the dominant set up last season.

I have shot enough 6.5s to know they are far more forgiving then all the 6mms I have shot... yet, the 6.5 is waning in useage at the top of the PRS standings.

Whatever happened to the 6.5 GAP?

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
If reducing wind drift was the most important goal, why the dominance of small case 6mm in Open?

Jerry
Click to expand...

Because 6mms (be they BR variants or "large" 6s not loaded to max speed/pressures) offer the best compromise in wind drift and low recoil while still having more energy on target so as to more easily spot hits/misses. They certainly aren't the best in all use cases as some matches with switchy winds and more prone stages (Rock Lake NRL last year comes to mind) favour something with more oomph (2 guys in the top 10 were running 7mms, a 284 and a 7SAUM). They are just the best compromise over the widest variety of conditions (both atmospheric and match design).

If you're advocating the OP get a Dasher or BR, that's not a bad idea. 5gr more powder than .223 and good barrel life. Hell, if he wants to run a .223 I'm sure he'll have a great time and learn plenty. It's just this ".223 can hang with other calibers inside 800y" line that is just never actually borne out in field shooting conditions with tight time limits and no flags. There is a reason that next to no one runs .223 in PRS matches (the 2-day ones south of the border). I could count the number of times I've seen someone run one in a match on the fingers of one hand and I shoot a dozen or so matches a year...
 
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