Guys want to see trace.
You see a 6.5 GAP pop up every once in a while (although the 6.5 PRC has kinda made it redundant) but mostly at PRS ELR-type matches. Chris Gittings won the Wyoming match last year shooting a 6.5 SAUM in hunter class.
First Centrefire PRS purchase.
- Thread starter RobHL
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Guys want to see trace.
You see a 6.5 GAP pop up every once in a while (although the 6.5 PRC has kinda made it redundant) but mostly at PRS ELR-type matches. Chris Gittings won the Wyoming match last year shooting a 6.5 SAUM in hunter class.
Mystic Precision
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Hellacious winds in Southern WA state? I am sure you know how much I have competed there.
The most popular set up in Open is the BR/Dasher 6mm.. as I have shown in my comparison, the 223 is really not that far behind ballistically to the Dasher/BR.. on paper or on target to 800yds.
When you get a bunch of top PRS shooters choosing to compete with the 223 vs less experienced shooters running the 6mm Dasher/BR, I think you will have your answer
would I want to run a 223 or a Dasher in the gales of Wash state? Nope but apparently, lots of shooters do use the 6mm to good effect... so
The question is a new shooter wanting to enter the game from rimfire. He wants to try a 223... it will work. Many have built 223's as practise rifles. How many now use them? I ran one as you know... and now it is gone.
Would I suggest a 223 today knowing the shooter will go to Open? Nope because when you hot rod a 223, it is hard on everything including the wallet... at which point, do you really save anything vs a toned down 6mm?
Not when you start adding in new mags, actions, dies, scales (hard to load the 223 well without very precise scales)... and 22cal bullets really arent that much cheaper vs a 6mm...
I have been down this rabbit hole... if the goal is to start and stay with the 223, fantastic. As a stepping off point to get to Open, you will spend more money in the long run AND you are learning the wrong dope.
Under correcting is just as bad as over correcting....
Jerry
The most popular set up in Open is the BR/Dasher 6mm.. as I have shown in my comparison, the 223 is really not that far behind ballistically to the Dasher/BR.. on paper or on target to 800yds.
When you get a bunch of top PRS shooters choosing to compete with the 223 vs less experienced shooters running the 6mm Dasher/BR, I think you will have your answer
would I want to run a 223 or a Dasher in the gales of Wash state? Nope but apparently, lots of shooters do use the 6mm to good effect... so
The question is a new shooter wanting to enter the game from rimfire. He wants to try a 223... it will work. Many have built 223's as practise rifles. How many now use them? I ran one as you know... and now it is gone.
Would I suggest a 223 today knowing the shooter will go to Open? Nope because when you hot rod a 223, it is hard on everything including the wallet... at which point, do you really save anything vs a toned down 6mm?
Not when you start adding in new mags, actions, dies, scales (hard to load the 223 well without very precise scales)... and 22cal bullets really arent that much cheaper vs a 6mm...
I have been down this rabbit hole... if the goal is to start and stay with the 223, fantastic. As a stepping off point to get to Open, you will spend more money in the long run AND you are learning the wrong dope.
Under correcting is just as bad as over correcting....
Jerry
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
Again, your comparison is made using steady state 3:00/9:00 winds and does not reflect the true differences on PRS style competition.
Dealing with wind in F-class you have
-wind flags
-sighter shots (unlimited on first relay no?)
-fixed/known shooting distance
-one minute per shot allotted time (22 minutes total)
-indicated hits
-spotting scope beside you
-watching the indicated hits on the shooters on each side of you on the firing line.
-entire string is in the same line of fire
Dealing with wind at a PRS match you have;
-90 to 120 seconds for 8-12 rounds
-no feedback except what you see in the scope
-commonly shoot in an arc of fire that changes your wind vector
-no wind flags
-no sighters
The 223 is far behind ballistically to 800 yards when you take away the F-class conditions, which of course brings us to......
No I don't know how much you have competed there.
Just how many PRS matches exactly have you actually shot in Southern WA state?
Mystic Precision
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I shoot F class down in Benton WA (Rattlesnake Range)... been going down for a number of years.
It is windy.
And I do shoot both CF and RF PRS... been doing so for a few seasons. enjoying it a bunch. Surprisingly, I prefer LR RF to CF.
As I have already said, I wouldn't suggest a 223 as an entry point today. Not enough interest, doubling up on infrastructure.. in the long run, you end up with 2 rifles and all the added costs. It certainly didn't save me any money.
For S&G's, you should do some side by side shooting between a 223 and 6D/BR. I think you will find it quite enlightening.
Jerry
It is windy.
And I do shoot both CF and RF PRS... been doing so for a few seasons. enjoying it a bunch. Surprisingly, I prefer LR RF to CF.
As I have already said, I wouldn't suggest a 223 as an entry point today. Not enough interest, doubling up on infrastructure.. in the long run, you end up with 2 rifles and all the added costs. It certainly didn't save me any money.
For S&G's, you should do some side by side shooting between a 223 and 6D/BR. I think you will find it quite enlightening.
Jerry
Again, as you well now, a 90s stage with 4-5 different targets at different ranges with different directions of fire and no flags, sighters, etc is a different beast than shooting F-Class, even in Eastern Washington. How many PRS (or PRS-type) matches have you shot down there?
With regards to whether a top shooter could do well with a .223, NONE of them shoot one so I guess we don't know. I can think of one guy who routinely top 20s at national level matches who shoots a .22cal (.22BR). Like you said, lots of guys have .223 trainers but nobody shoots them in important matches, maybe a club match here or there. This isn't me making guesses or assumptions, this is knowledge I have from going to match after match after match.
To the OP, if you want to run a .223 for PRS-type shooting, have at her, you'll have a great time and learn a ton. Just understand that you'll struggle with gusty winds. I stand by my suggestion to start out with a 6.5 Creedmoor unless you honestly think you'll be shooting out the barrel in a season or less (3k rds/year).
Mystic Precision
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With so many 6mm CM options, I would suggest a start there and throttle WAY down. If the destination is a 6mm in a season, why not just go there now?
If going factory, I would look at running a 6 CM at 6BR performance and I suspect, bore life is not going to be much different. Brass cost is quite a bit lower in the CM these days.
And you only need to buy your infrastructure once... spend the rest on barrels, and ammo to practise.
FYI, I have run several 6.5 Creedmoors over the years. Love the chambering but it is not what I use in PRS today and wouldn't suggest it given all the choices available.
Jerry
If going factory, I would look at running a 6 CM at 6BR performance and I suspect, bore life is not going to be much different. Brass cost is quite a bit lower in the CM these days.
And you only need to buy your infrastructure once... spend the rest on barrels, and ammo to practise.
FYI, I have run several 6.5 Creedmoors over the years. Love the chambering but it is not what I use in PRS today and wouldn't suggest it given all the choices available.
Jerry
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With regard to your PRS shooting experience, there's really no need to be opaque. If I'm not mistaken, you've shot one 2-day national level match (Furlong's) and a couple 1-day BCPRL matches. No offence but that isn't exactly a very deep breadth of experience with regards to centre fire PRS match shooting. I know you have plenty of F-Class experience but the 2 disciplines, as we all know, are quite different in many regards. RGV and myself are providing information based on experience we've both garnered shooting 10x as many matches (on both coasts and most of which Stateside with I hate to admit it, have a much deeper pool of talent). So there's that.
As far as starting out with a 6 Creedmoor, I love that chambering, I have 4 or 5 barrels on the go now. Run a bit "throttled back" as you put it, they're awesome. 110s or 115s around 2950 gets you great ballistics, low recoil, consistent performance and barrel life in excess of 2000 rounds (I have one barrel at 2500rds that still prints 0.8moa groups, not ideal but definitely workable).
The OP stated that he didn't have the budget to build off a custom action and honestly I'm not sure what's out there for factory 6 Creedmoor rifles (RPR, Savage?). My suggestion for a 6.5 Creedmoor is based on massive availability, good performance and good barrel life. If it were me, I'd get a Rem 700 in 6.5 Creed, drop it in a chassis, shoot it for the first season and if I felt like diving in further, I'd get a .223 bolt for it the next season and have a good smith do up a .223 barrel (for practice) and 2x 6 Creedmoor barrels (for match use).
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Seems like we agree. He can do some research and see what rifles are in 6mm CM. I suspect there will be the usual suspects and more on the way.
Going by components sales... looks like a growing interest in the 6CM... kind of flat to dropping for the 6.5 CM
YMMV
Jerry
Yeah, the only thing I'd caution someone on starting with a 6 CM is again to have a realistic idea of how much he'll actually shoot. If you shoot 50rds/week your barrel won't last a year so he has to be ok with that and maybe have a spare ready to spin on (depending on what kinda action he's using). 6 Creed barrel life isn't a big deal when you have a bunch of spare barrels and a practice gun/barrel in a different caliber but if it's your only setup, it can take some managing or planning ahead.
That's why I think the 6.5 Creed is a good middle ground for a guy starting out, plenty of performance, tons of available rifles chambered in it, great factory ammo, and pretty decent barrel life (especially as compared to even a mild 6mm). Not to mention that if he decides to move onto a 6 creed, he can just get a new barrel, neck down his brass, get new dies and be off to the races.
Mystic Precision
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- Location
- Summerland, BC
Definitely solid points.. I love the 6.5 CM but the sport is moving in another direction
Shooter will just have to weigh all the pros and cons. Ultimately, getting out and joining in the fun is the most important part.
Looking forward to summer matches
Jerry
Shooter will just have to weigh all the pros and cons. Ultimately, getting out and joining in the fun is the most important part.
Looking forward to summer matches
Jerry
Yup, definitely jealous watching matches go on stateside with no sign of the border reopening any time soon. We'll be running BCPRL matches as soon as the guidelines or whatever with regards to large-ish groups of people are relaxed.
I’m quite curious about this statement.
You admit you’ve never shot PRS in Washington, the BCPRL has only ran one season, and the CRPRS one and a bit.
Where have you shot CF and RF PRS “for a few seasons”? Have I missed out on all these matches?
If it’s true that you’ve really only shot three PRS matches, two of which were club level, perhaps it’s you that should seek some enlightenment?
Mystic Precision
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- Summerland, BC
rgv, the debate we have had is about a ballistics comparison between a 223 and a 6BR. I have been shooting the 22cals in various forms for over 20yrs. 6mms into the teens for sure... including the 6BR.
If you want to learn about ballistics, you look at the development in the F class field. The 6BR as a LR set up was developed in the F class world... in fact, that is where Berger cut its teeth. One of their first influential bullet was a 6mm suitable for LR F class. Was one of the first dealers to offer them to the shooting crowd in Canada.
6.5X47L , 6 Dasher/BRA and other variants of the 6BR, small primer brass, Hybrid bullet design, wonderful world of at home annealing, precision scales, velocity load tuning, ladder testing, etc, etc, etc... wonder what sports they originated from and where have they been used from the start.
Where do you think the ballistic tech used in PRS came from?
so yeah, been at this for a while on the technical side and put a few bullets downrange in testing and in competition..... enough to offer a well informed point of view.
Learning how to shoot off a rickety prop really doesn't change the ballistics... and apparently, I seem to be doing well against my local peers.... a few who also travel down south.
YMMV
Jerry
If you want to learn about ballistics, you look at the development in the F class field. The 6BR as a LR set up was developed in the F class world... in fact, that is where Berger cut its teeth. One of their first influential bullet was a 6mm suitable for LR F class. Was one of the first dealers to offer them to the shooting crowd in Canada.
6.5X47L , 6 Dasher/BRA and other variants of the 6BR, small primer brass, Hybrid bullet design, wonderful world of at home annealing, precision scales, velocity load tuning, ladder testing, etc, etc, etc... wonder what sports they originated from and where have they been used from the start.
Where do you think the ballistic tech used in PRS came from?
so yeah, been at this for a while on the technical side and put a few bullets downrange in testing and in competition..... enough to offer a well informed point of view.
Learning how to shoot off a rickety prop really doesn't change the ballistics... and apparently, I seem to be doing well against my local peers.... a few who also travel down south.
YMMV
Jerry
To be honest, the debate was about the suitability of .223 for PRS. No one debated the ballistics numbers. The issue is the different parameters that PRS is shot under (tight time limits, multiple engagement ranges, no sighters, no flags, etc) compared to F-Class. This lead to you using a debating tactic known as "an appeal to authority" in which you insinuate that you have a deep level of experience in PRS-type shooting making you a subject matter expert. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, you've only shot a couple 1-day matches (say 6 stages/per) and a single 2-day national level match (20+ stages over 2 days) which most would agree hardly amounts to "a deep level of experience". That's not meant as a slight, just to set the record straight. Certainly doesn't in any way invalidate your years of experience with regards to reloading, ballistics, F-class, etc but this wasn't question about any of those topics.
Mystic Precision
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- Location
- Summerland, BC
Note... I do not recommend the OPs desire to get a 223. Maybe reread my first post.. that is #11
I have been there done that. I used to think it was a great entry point.. but have posted like the 4th time... I don't recommend it today.
Just reread my posts... I mean really reread my posts... like my first post #11
Is it a workable options at moderate distances? Can you use this chamber and hit targets out to moderate distances? Of course... and the ballistics aren't all that far behind the very popular 6BR family ubber popular in PRS today. Is it the SAME? nope and I have illustrated that... I think very clearly
You were there for my first BCPRL match... I believe you were shooting a 6mm of somekind. I was shooting a 223. How did our scores compare?
I don't recommend the 223 not because it is not capable for moderate distance matches, it is for all the other issues I have already discussed in this post..... maybe post #11
I think this horse is well and truly dead... but have it.
Jerry
I have been there done that. I used to think it was a great entry point.. but have posted like the 4th time... I don't recommend it today.
Just reread my posts... I mean really reread my posts... like my first post #11
Is it a workable options at moderate distances? Can you use this chamber and hit targets out to moderate distances? Of course... and the ballistics aren't all that far behind the very popular 6BR family ubber popular in PRS today. Is it the SAME? nope and I have illustrated that... I think very clearly
You were there for my first BCPRL match... I believe you were shooting a 6mm of somekind. I was shooting a 223. How did our scores compare?
I don't recommend the 223 not because it is not capable for moderate distance matches, it is for all the other issues I have already discussed in this post..... maybe post #11
I think this horse is well and truly dead... but have it.
Jerry
