Hello all. I recently purchased a 1912 Lee Enfield No.1 Mk.3, not sporterized. I got the rifle test fired at my local gun smith. He has informed me that the bolt face has worn down, causing the shell casing to bulge, and that I will need the next size up to fix the problem. (Apparently there are multiple bolt face sizes). Unfortunately, I have no clue what size the bolt face is. There is a small M, and also an R stamped on it, anyone know what they mean? Attached are pictures of the bulge on the casing, and the M and R on the bolt. Thanks
1912 Lee Enfield No.1 Mk.3
- Thread starter Aidan.z
- Start date
No 1 MK III's did not have larger or smaller bolt heads, the No 4 Series did but not the No 3's. The bulge you have experienced is caused by the wear on the locking lugs or the "Crushing" of the barrel and bolt threads.
There are ways to repair this but none of them are cheap and will involve finding a new bolt body or taking the barrel off, adding a thread, putting the barrel back on and rechambering.
Depending on how big the bulge, it might be perfectly safe just a ##### to reload the cases fired in it. If it is too far gone, it is not worth the effort or the money to repair it. Got a photo of a fired case?
Scott
There are ways to repair this but none of them are cheap and will involve finding a new bolt body or taking the barrel off, adding a thread, putting the barrel back on and rechambering.
Depending on how big the bulge, it might be perfectly safe just a ##### to reload the cases fired in it. If it is too far gone, it is not worth the effort or the money to repair it. Got a photo of a fired case?
Scott
Hi Aidan.z. The bolt face was hardened so near impossible to wear down. You need a new bolt head. OR .. I actually have seen a bolt head with a soldered or brazed 'waffer' on the face drilled for the firing pin. Then you take the firing pin and cut it back to the shoulder and make another
with an extended point. The new made front piece is soldered into a recess to fit into the old firing pin shoulder. A bit of lathe work but its the poor man's way of extending a bolt face when you don't have spares. Firing pin protrusion should be 45 - 50 thous from the face. The funny part is that a good job may be hard to identify. I'm rather surprised that the smith didn't know this alteration. JOHN
with an extended point. The new made front piece is soldered into a recess to fit into the old firing pin shoulder. A bit of lathe work but its the poor man's way of extending a bolt face when you don't have spares. Firing pin protrusion should be 45 - 50 thous from the face. The funny part is that a good job may be hard to identify. I'm rather surprised that the smith didn't know this alteration. JOHN
OK, I have a couple of No 1 mkIII bolt heads with headspace numbers on them and if you measure them, they are different lengths.
OP, I find it strange that the gunsmith told you the face of the bolt head was worn. IMHO, that's IMPOSSIBLE. Those bolt heads are HARD. Anyone that's tried to machine one can vouch for that.
What can happen is the threads can be deformed very slightly but even that would be highly suspect IMHO, because deformed threads make thing very tight when rotating the bolt head. It's a very noticeable condition.
What can happen, occasionally, is that the action will stretch a few thousandths of an inch. Without seeing pics I can't definitely say for sure, but I believe that what you're seeing on your fired cases is NORMAL for both No1 and No4 rifles. There might also be some set back in the bolt lug recesses or the bolt lugs may be worn. Again very rarely.
Their chambers are cut slightly oversize on purpose, to facilitate feeding and closing the bolt on slightly dirty or otherwise oversize cases.
I only have ONE Lee Enfield that doesn't give an expansion ring at the web and that's only because I set back the barrel one thread and recut the chamber with a borrowed match reamer. All have in spec headspace.
Likely your gunsmith isn't familiar with the nuances of Lee Enfield chambers and doesn't have proper headspace gauges for it.
If you're going to hand load for the rifle and want your cases to last, neck size only and maybe just partially resize the shoulder area, without setting back the shoulder. This will fireform the brass to your particular rifle's chamber. To fireform you brass safely, get some small rubber bands from Staples and push them up the case to the rim before chambering the round. This will hold the case against your bolt face. After the first firing and neck sizing, the brass will be custom formed for your rifle's chamber, with no headspace issues.
Last edited:
Aidan: The preceding posts pretty much cover it. In addition to a visible expansion ring I have many that create a banana shaped fireformed case, I guess because the cartridge was eccentered in the chamber when fired. Your gunsmith should have told you exactly what the current headspace is as he should have had the usual variety of gauges to check it. Old armourers manuals indicate that oversize No. 1 bolt-heads were once available and that they were to be fitted to a rifle (if initially too long) by rubbing the bolt face on emery cloth. If your headspace is excessive you could attempt to measure your current bolthead and then try to find someone who could sell you one a few thou longer. I know checking my own No. 1 bolthead inventory (not nearly enough of them) I see quite a variety of lengths. I must add that I've checked headspace on dozens of No. 1 and No. 4 rifles and only come across a single No. 1 that had any issue. It was a particularly hard used Ishapore 1915 Mk I***IP that had a mismatched bolt. Even in it's rough shape I had no trouble finding a bolt body/ bolt head combo that brought it back to spec (the bolt did need a minor bit of stoning on one lug to achieve a perfect fit in the action body. Be patient and study up and you'll probably be able to resolve any problems (and ask the guinsmith what the headspace is).
milsurpo
milsurpo
I've measured the bolt head size with a caliper. it measures 0.6385" which is 16.22 mm. What size would you guys recommend using? I would post a picture of the bulging, but the site wont let me until I "Contribute more to the forum"
Last edited:
IF the rifle has excess headspace - determined by testing with the correct gauges - a longer bolthead would reduce the headspace.
SMLE boltheads are not exactly interchangeable. They must screw into index properly. The firing load is not taken by the threads, but by the rear surface of the bolthead contacting the front face of the bolt body. With a big enough sack of spare boltheads, a better fit might be achieved, IF that is the problem in the first place.
If fired cases are showing an expansion bulge or ring about 3.16" up from the rim, that is normal and has nothing to do with the bolthead or headspace. The expansion ring results from the difference in diameter of the chamber and cartridge case.
Your gunsmith told you that the boltface was worn down. Many things could be wrong with a 108 year old rifle, but the boltface being worn down is unlikely. Did the gunsmith use gauges?
SMLE boltheads are not exactly interchangeable. They must screw into index properly. The firing load is not taken by the threads, but by the rear surface of the bolthead contacting the front face of the bolt body. With a big enough sack of spare boltheads, a better fit might be achieved, IF that is the problem in the first place.
If fired cases are showing an expansion bulge or ring about 3.16" up from the rim, that is normal and has nothing to do with the bolthead or headspace. The expansion ring results from the difference in diameter of the chamber and cartridge case.
Your gunsmith told you that the boltface was worn down. Many things could be wrong with a 108 year old rifle, but the boltface being worn down is unlikely. Did the gunsmith use gauges?
no guages. I told him not to worry about it for now because the bulging started about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch from the bottom of the rim. It must be too much head space. Anyone know where I can find a few bolt heads larger than 0.6385"?? Im located in Burnaby B.C.
- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
without a head space gauge there is no way to say the bulge is a head space issue or an oversized chamber issue
most enfields the issue is an oversized chamber not headspace.
the bulge is on one side, and you will see that the primer is struck off center
what is happening is the cartridge is sitting on the bottom of the oversized chamber and there is more room on top of the case and it expands more then the side of the case sitting on the bottom of the chamber.
most enfields the issue is an oversized chamber not headspace.
the bulge is on one side, and you will see that the primer is struck off center
what is happening is the cartridge is sitting on the bottom of the oversized chamber and there is more room on top of the case and it expands more then the side of the case sitting on the bottom of the chamber.
Here is a good, clear photo of the fired case. The expansion ring is clearly visible. Next to the expansion ring, further away from the rim, there is a frosted ring.
This is almost certainly an incipient separation, indicating excess headspace.
The rifle needs to be tested with a .303 FIELD gauge. I suspect the bolt would close on the gauge. Trying an assortment of bolt heads would be one solution. Handloading cartridges specifically for this rifle would be another. In the meantime, I personally would not shoot the rifle with factory ammunition, at least until it is checked with gauges.
This is almost certainly an incipient separation, indicating excess headspace.
The rifle needs to be tested with a .303 FIELD gauge. I suspect the bolt would close on the gauge. Trying an assortment of bolt heads would be one solution. Handloading cartridges specifically for this rifle would be another. In the meantime, I personally would not shoot the rifle with factory ammunition, at least until it is checked with gauges.
Attachments
Last edited:
I've seen that same issue before on old new stock rifles.
I would be willing to assume that chamber is on the maximum side for diameter and depth.
OP, tiriaq is right on all points.
If you handload, don't full length resize the case. When you fire it for the first time, use a rubber band in front of the rim, against the chamber face. This will keep your cartridge straight and hopefully centered in the chamber so that you get even expansion, instead of the banana shape.
The picture doesn't show the primer. If it isn't protruding, The field gauge shouldn't close.
I'm willing to assume as well, if you cut one of those fired cases in half, lengthwise, that the thickness difference wouldn't be enough to be concerned about, even for a reload.
I have a Lee Metford sporter with a pristine bore, the predecessor of your rifle, and it does exactly the same thing to every first fired round, if I don't use a rubber band spacer.
I get several reloads on all of the cases I have fireformed for that particular rifle. Those cases will not chamber in my match chambered rifle nor another No1 MIII* with a chamber right on median spec.
Maybe the reamer used to cut your chamber was over spec dimensions????
I would be willing to assume that chamber is on the maximum side for diameter and depth.
OP, tiriaq is right on all points.
If you handload, don't full length resize the case. When you fire it for the first time, use a rubber band in front of the rim, against the chamber face. This will keep your cartridge straight and hopefully centered in the chamber so that you get even expansion, instead of the banana shape.
The picture doesn't show the primer. If it isn't protruding, The field gauge shouldn't close.
I'm willing to assume as well, if you cut one of those fired cases in half, lengthwise, that the thickness difference wouldn't be enough to be concerned about, even for a reload.
I have a Lee Metford sporter with a pristine bore, the predecessor of your rifle, and it does exactly the same thing to every first fired round, if I don't use a rubber band spacer.
I get several reloads on all of the cases I have fireformed for that particular rifle. Those cases will not chamber in my match chambered rifle nor another No1 MIII* with a chamber right on median spec.
Maybe the reamer used to cut your chamber was over spec dimensions????
Last edited:
My thinking is that the expansion is mostly due to an oversized chamber, possibly aided by a thin rim.
The RIM THICKNESS is one of the factors determining headspace. Military Spec rims are .056 to .063 thick, so that is 7 thousandths of play. I have also seen commericial casings with rims anywhere up to and even exceeding an extra 20 thousandsths too thin.
Before you go trying to fatten the bolt-head or fit a new one, tnere is a trick (which actually works) that you can try.
Head to your local dollar store or stationery shop and get a packet of small rubber bands. You can use pony-tail ties, for that matter.... and they even come in BLACK, which gives you TACTICAL ammo!
What you do is place one of the elastics/ties around the bases of a box of cartridges, just ahead of the rim. The idea is that the cartridge casing then will be thrust back AGAINST the bolt-face, reducing headspace to ZERO. You do that for a box of ammo, then neck-size those cases, reload them and you can fire them again, this time withOUT the elastics. You are now half-way to Match-grade ammunition.
It sounds dumb, but it actually works. I have cases here that have been fired more than a dozen times and still do not need to be trimmed. When you fire, the case can expand FORWARD, filling the chamber, giving you more consistent pressures and better accuracy because the REAR END is now SUPPORTED FULLY by the Bolt.
Give it a try. It can't hurt anything and it costs you only a buck to try.... and you just might really like what the rifle starts to do on the target!
The RIM THICKNESS is one of the factors determining headspace. Military Spec rims are .056 to .063 thick, so that is 7 thousandths of play. I have also seen commericial casings with rims anywhere up to and even exceeding an extra 20 thousandsths too thin.
Before you go trying to fatten the bolt-head or fit a new one, tnere is a trick (which actually works) that you can try.
Head to your local dollar store or stationery shop and get a packet of small rubber bands. You can use pony-tail ties, for that matter.... and they even come in BLACK, which gives you TACTICAL ammo!
What you do is place one of the elastics/ties around the bases of a box of cartridges, just ahead of the rim. The idea is that the cartridge casing then will be thrust back AGAINST the bolt-face, reducing headspace to ZERO. You do that for a box of ammo, then neck-size those cases, reload them and you can fire them again, this time withOUT the elastics. You are now half-way to Match-grade ammunition.
It sounds dumb, but it actually works. I have cases here that have been fired more than a dozen times and still do not need to be trimmed. When you fire, the case can expand FORWARD, filling the chamber, giving you more consistent pressures and better accuracy because the REAR END is now SUPPORTED FULLY by the Bolt.
Give it a try. It can't hurt anything and it costs you only a buck to try.... and you just might really like what the rifle starts to do on the target!
