Vintage sniper rifles
- Thread starter Claytom Magnet
- Start date
Original sniper rifles, no matter what country they come from are scarce. They didn't make many of
them at all , usually because of the cost of optics.
You have to be very lucky to fine them in military storage, complete with kit and available for sale.
them at all , usually because of the cost of optics.
You have to be very lucky to fine them in military storage, complete with kit and available for sale.
Fuzzy Wool Hat
Regular
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
cheapest vintage sniper you'll find is probably the mosin PU. Be aware that there are many many many refurb models with non-matching scopes, and an original with all the right serials will cost more.
Still though, sniper rifles are never cheap. Might be able to find a nice British No4 T for 4-5k or an M1D for 3500....
Still though, sniper rifles are never cheap. Might be able to find a nice British No4 T for 4-5k or an M1D for 3500....
I'm guessing you do that by finding random parts on the ee or something?
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Finding random parts is part of it. Doing it well probably starts with hours of reading good reference material to understand what kind of parts you are actually looking for - which kind went with which, how they were mounted or installed, etc. Which scope went with which version that used which type of mount at what time. The milsurps.com library has some useful stuff regarding Lee Enfields and some others. Gotta start by picking who's sniper rifle from what era are you going to clone... an American Civil War Whitworth, a Winchester P14 from WWI or a British No. 4 (T) from WWII, a USA Remington from Vietnam conflict or a Russian, a Bosnian, a Chinese and so on.
I'll check it out, thanks
- Location
- Western Manitoba
And then understand what you are building - getting for your efforts. "sniper rifles" were not always some fantastically accurate "shoot the eye out of a fly at 100 meters" thing. For example, from "allaboutenfields", quoting, Skinnerton, I believe, regarding what Holland and Holland produced as Lee Enfield No. 4 (T) sniper rifles:
“Accuracy tests for the No. 4 sniper rifle involved placing 7 out of 7 shots within a 5 inch diameter at 200 yards & 6 out of 7 shots into a 10 inch diameter at 400yards.” From this report then the minimum standard for No. 4 “T” sniper rifles was 2.5 MOA out to 400 yards for at least 6 shots. (out of 7 shots fired)
“Accuracy tests for the No. 4 sniper rifle involved placing 7 out of 7 shots within a 5 inch diameter at 200 yards & 6 out of 7 shots into a 10 inch diameter at 400yards.” From this report then the minimum standard for No. 4 “T” sniper rifles was 2.5 MOA out to 400 yards for at least 6 shots. (out of 7 shots fired)
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Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Find a 91/30 and work your way from there.
As stated above, generally vintage snipers are easily outclassed accuracy wise by a modern hunting rifle.
The major advance of the No4 T's No32 scope is repeatable 1moa adjustments, and a 'hard bottom' cam- no other sniping optic until the late 1960s early 1970s had that capability.
No other vintage optic has that ability - but the 91/30 optic comes close.
A Parker Hale C3/1200tx with a zf69 is vintage and a useable precision rifle even today.
As stated above, generally vintage snipers are easily outclassed accuracy wise by a modern hunting rifle.
The major advance of the No4 T's No32 scope is repeatable 1moa adjustments, and a 'hard bottom' cam- no other sniping optic until the late 1960s early 1970s had that capability.
No other vintage optic has that ability - but the 91/30 optic comes close.
A Parker Hale C3/1200tx with a zf69 is vintage and a useable precision rifle even today.
Fuzzy Wool Hat
Regular
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I agree that the No32 scope is excellent in terms of tracking and repeatability. The PU scope is...not my favourite. I’ve owned 3 PU snipers and none of them would adjust straight up/down or left/right. They always did this weird wiggly line when you adjusted the elevation or windage.
There's always the route of putting 70's and 80's optics on full wood no4 lee enfieds or k98s with modern mounts. Looks like a ww2 sniper to the casual observer, or from a distance. I've seen a few like that that would scratch the itch on a budget.
OP, the Soviet PUs are likely the cheapest model to get into sniper rifles with. Then there is also the PE model, which has a different, larger scope, that looks more like a hunting scope.
Light Infantry is correct as to why the #32 variants were so successful and IMHO were the best sniper scopes fielded during WWII. However there is one other factor that many don't take into account and is just as or even more important.
The #32 scope was intended to be mounted on a Bren Gun and as such was way overbuilt for the No4 rifles it was later mounted on, with incredibly over built brackets and mount points.
That doesn't mean the scopes didn't fail. They did. Blooming, caused by water getting past the seals was usually the culprit, but not always.
As for a No4T for $4000 to $5000, IMHO those days are long past. I haven't seen one with all matching numbers, with transit case and accessories go for less than $10K for at least five years and that's for a bit of a beater.
Light Infantry is correct as to why the #32 variants were so successful and IMHO were the best sniper scopes fielded during WWII. However there is one other factor that many don't take into account and is just as or even more important.
The #32 scope was intended to be mounted on a Bren Gun and as such was way overbuilt for the No4 rifles it was later mounted on, with incredibly over built brackets and mount points.
That doesn't mean the scopes didn't fail. They did. Blooming, caused by water getting past the seals was usually the culprit, but not always.
As for a No4T for $4000 to $5000, IMHO those days are long past. I haven't seen one with all matching numbers, with transit case and accessories go for less than $10K for at least five years and that's for a bit of a beater.
Good luck with that. The example recently shown by Ian McCullum in 'Forgotten Weapons' was sold at Rock Island Arsenal auctions for USD$161,000.
I took a badly bubba'd M1903A3 sporter with lots of crooked holes in the receiver. Set it up in a used service stock. No problem getting all the stock fitting hardware. Installed a commercial Redfield base and commercial Weaver 330 scope. Fitted a salvaged Parker Hale Midland bolt body to get scope clearance. Certainly resembles a Model 03A4 sniper rifle. Shoots very well. Total investment was moderate.
A Weaver 330 is a 1930s 3/4" tube scope. The government version was actually mounted on issue 03A4 rifles. It works remarkably well, considering it resembles a cheap .22 scope. Pretty sad compared with a No. 32. I suppose that it was used because it was available. The Lyman Alaskan, of the same vintage, was also used, and it is in a different league. Still not up to the No. 32.
A Weaver 330 is a 1930s 3/4" tube scope. The government version was actually mounted on issue 03A4 rifles. It works remarkably well, considering it resembles a cheap .22 scope. Pretty sad compared with a No. 32. I suppose that it was used because it was available. The Lyman Alaskan, of the same vintage, was also used, and it is in a different league. Still not up to the No. 32.
Lol, you forgot the preceding sentence: “first you gotta choose what rifle you’re gonna clone...”.
Pedersoli makes a credible reproduction. Could also do a Sharps.Some of the accumounts zf39 K98 setups have made it up here and show up on the EE once in a while. Zrak optics and mounts for a mostly legit Serb M48. Repop SOV or PEM stuff for an M39. Assorted no-drill mounts for a No 4. And as suggested above, there are the Russian options Including the SVT-40 or PU. There’s even a almost complete set of parts on the EE to put together an M40. Gunsmith not included.
I grabbed up a PEM M39 last year, has only the vaguest historical influence but was really well done and shoots great. I can even reproduce the Finn’s D166 round with Lapua components. Good fun if not cheap.
Fuzzy Wool Hat
Regular
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Hey I’ve got one of those as well. Used to shoot better than my No4T, but the stock warped and puts pressure on the side of the action. Now she’s very inconsistent
One of our fellow club members here has a complete Long Branch No4[T] outfit in the transit case, near-mint in every respect, lucky beggar. Nothing is missing. The auctioneer had it down as a regular No4[T], and sold it as such for a mere £4000 here in UK about five years ago. I wonder what it's worth back home?
Lol, you forgot the preceding sentence: “first you gotta choose what rifle you’re gonna clone...”.
Both the Parker-Hale and the Pedersoli have a number of glaring errors that stop them dead right there.
Both are too long - the Whitworth rifles that went to the Confederacy were only two-band rifles, with a nose-piece that ended about an inch-and-a-half short of the muzzle. Both modern replications have three bands and long overhangs at the muzzle. A better fake can be made using a two-band Naval rifle - also from Parker-hale - or a two-band .451. Externally, anyhow. It depends on how hung up you are on the finicky hexagonal rifling.
For just buying off the shelf, you cannot beat a good refurbed PU. Many have superb bores and everything was put into spec at refurb. My '43 Tula refurb PU will outshoot just about everything I have even using old surplus Russian or Chinese ammo. I have to handload for my No. 4 T to get accuracy even close.
If "T"s are truly getting up into the $5000 plus range, I wouldn't think it too wise to buy one to use as a plinker. The scopes are super heavy but many of them have been repaired once or twice and, if you break one, you'll have an expensive and difficult to source repair. You might want to think repro or faux Sniper. A nice looking "T" repro sold on the EE for reasonable dollars a few weeks ago. Building one yourself is probably not practical but there are many out there that owners grow tired of. A repro SVT 40 Sniper is practical- all you need is a standard refurb with the siderails. Repro mounts and genuine scopes are available and all you really have to do is file a small notch across the rear of the receiver for the cross-pin of the mount. It will be hit and miss how well the bore is aligned with the axis of the mount but there are ways to adjust the mount to get it acceptable. Another fairly straightforward option might be to build a PE replica Mosin Sniper. Go for a hex receiver and the repro base can be fit pretty easily.
I've attached shots of my repro "T" and new repro PE. The repro T came to me as just bare rifle with the pads already attached (solid but not pretty). I had to buy a repro "bracket" and align it to the bore. With cheapo Taiwanese No. 32 scope it groups very well. For the donour rifle somebody selected a '42 Savage with mirror bore.
milsurpoView attachment 391183View attachment 391182
If "T"s are truly getting up into the $5000 plus range, I wouldn't think it too wise to buy one to use as a plinker. The scopes are super heavy but many of them have been repaired once or twice and, if you break one, you'll have an expensive and difficult to source repair. You might want to think repro or faux Sniper. A nice looking "T" repro sold on the EE for reasonable dollars a few weeks ago. Building one yourself is probably not practical but there are many out there that owners grow tired of. A repro SVT 40 Sniper is practical- all you need is a standard refurb with the siderails. Repro mounts and genuine scopes are available and all you really have to do is file a small notch across the rear of the receiver for the cross-pin of the mount. It will be hit and miss how well the bore is aligned with the axis of the mount but there are ways to adjust the mount to get it acceptable. Another fairly straightforward option might be to build a PE replica Mosin Sniper. Go for a hex receiver and the repro base can be fit pretty easily.
I've attached shots of my repro "T" and new repro PE. The repro T came to me as just bare rifle with the pads already attached (solid but not pretty). I had to buy a repro "bracket" and align it to the bore. With cheapo Taiwanese No. 32 scope it groups very well. For the donour rifle somebody selected a '42 Savage with mirror bore.
milsurpoView attachment 391183View attachment 391182
