Savage Elite Precision 110 .223 - owner's blog
- Thread starter adamg
- Start date
I think it is a sign of high pressure conditions with this load.
I'm nut sure about the pressure. Usually pressure flattens the primer quite a lot. Yours are not flattened and yet they flowed around the firing pin.
I've gathered more data with different loads and taken more pictures. I'll post that info tonight. But spoiler alert, you are correct, the primer hole looks similar from soft loads to hot loads, it is mostly the sharpness of the outer edge of the primer cup that changes as pressure goes up.
I ground the firing pin shorter on my RPR, not this gun.
could you post a pic of the firing pin retracted in the bolt face?
I have a hunch the pin is a bit short which allows the primer to flow in the firing pin hole.
On encouragement within the thread I was motivated to try loading the 80gr ELDM with Varget instead of H4895. I whipped up some test loadings, 0.2grain increments. I also confirmed that this bullet starts hitting lands at about 2.410", so I can't go any longer than I was already using in the Ruger Precison Rifle.
Starting at the lower end of Varget loads, and with a baseline first shot with the H4895 load:
More powder increments. Note that the final group of 2 shots with the higher charge was a mistake, a data entry error on the Chargemaster caused me to realize I had thrown two loads higher than I meant to:
With these results and looking at the cases for pressure signs, I was encouraged to go a bit hotter (that two shot group is so encouraging!), so I put together another 6 rounds of the 24.8gr, 25.0, and 25.2. Note that I was marginally closer to the target for this session:
And here's the back end of the cases for the three top loadings:
The wave-like ripples on the primer cup at 25.2gr are pretty interesting.
I suppose I could try hotter still, nothing catastrophic has happened yet. But I'm OK stopping here. I crested the mythic 3000 fps barrier.
At this point I'm leaning towards settling on the 24.8gr load. It shot one great group and one OK group (great if you discount the "flier"), and posted one great SD and one OK SD.
Starting at the lower end of Varget loads, and with a baseline first shot with the H4895 load:
More powder increments. Note that the final group of 2 shots with the higher charge was a mistake, a data entry error on the Chargemaster caused me to realize I had thrown two loads higher than I meant to:
With these results and looking at the cases for pressure signs, I was encouraged to go a bit hotter (that two shot group is so encouraging!), so I put together another 6 rounds of the 24.8gr, 25.0, and 25.2. Note that I was marginally closer to the target for this session:
And here's the back end of the cases for the three top loadings:
The wave-like ripples on the primer cup at 25.2gr are pretty interesting.
I suppose I could try hotter still, nothing catastrophic has happened yet. But I'm OK stopping here. I crested the mythic 3000 fps barrier.
At this point I'm leaning towards settling on the 24.8gr load. It shot one great group and one OK group (great if you discount the "flier"), and posted one great SD and one OK SD.
I had a photo of the boltface with firing pin retracted posted on the first page. I probed in the hole, the pin is shy by quite a bit when retracted, maybe 3mm as an estimate.
Here's a photo of the firing pin extended. My fingers didn't enjoy this:
Another conclusion I'm making from looking at these load development groups is that I'm dubious of using a 'ladder' test to find the best load. There is very minimal, and often zero, vertical POI shift through these groups, certainly nothing that follows the theoretical up-down-up-down-up pattern the technique demands that we identify in the results. I still think for that technique to be legitimate, the up-down movement of bullet impacts must vary as a function of powder charge, more than the statistical noise of a round to round grouping with a constant load.
If we are shooting 1.5" groups, I'd have to see a up-down-up-down pattern of 3" or more before I would say we are observing some kind of harmonic muzzle whip node. And there certainly is no 3" vertical shift going up and down in a pattern in these results.
If we are shooting 1.5" groups, I'd have to see a up-down-up-down pattern of 3" or more before I would say we are observing some kind of harmonic muzzle whip node. And there certainly is no 3" vertical shift going up and down in a pattern in these results.
My understanding of the OCW technique for load development is that it says to load incremental rounds and chrono them, and where there is a flat spot is a good stable velocity charge. Admittedly my SD's are perhaps too large to detect this, and perhaps I didn't span a large enough range of charges. I don't see a flat spot, though.
Soooo you are loading different head stamped brass? Some of those brass look like they have ejector marks on them too. Looking at 24.8 load. 24.6, and 25 do not impact the same location really. I don't feel you are in any kind of node so to speak.
Edit: I just saw your graph.
I just average the fps for the graph, you should see a flat spot still if one is there.
Edit: I just saw your graph.
I just average the fps for the graph, you should see a flat spot still if one is there.
If shooting for accuracy, stick with one brand of brass. Mixing brass may hide accuracy improvements/nodes. Range pickup would one my last choice for accuracy unless I was sure it was once fired. My impression from pics is that the nodes are masked, altho you're in the ballpark. My 80gr load was best 24.2 - 24.4 Varget with R15 being a very close second, same dose.
Once you find the best group try adjusting length.
You should be able to get those well under an inch at 200y
Once you find the best group try adjusting length.
You should be able to get those well under an inch at 200y
Those are not great results with the Varget.
I have a few suggestions.
Sort your brass by manufacturer and do your testing using the same brand for each powder charge weight and all weights if possible.
Do you do any brass prep? there are a long list of things you can do to the brass but a few easy ones are trim to length, sort into lots by weight. For more tips see h ttps://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/
If you are not already doing so, use a good scale and weigh each charge when load testing.
How precise is your scale? Are you weighing each charge or setting the powder dispenser and then throwing? A cheap scale that does not hold a true zero will mean your not really getting 24.0 every time. If you are throwing and not weighing each charge when testing again you can end up with too much variance.
You may not want to read this but I think you need to try a different bullet. Hornady says those 80 ElDMs require a minimum of 1-8 twist. According to factory specs the Savage has a 1-7 so it should be spinning them fast enough. Sometimes a barrel just does not want to shoot a specific bullet. Try a different, lighter weight bullet like the Sierra 69 SMK or Lapua Scenar. If those throw wild groups too then it's more likely the barrel not the bullets or powder.
That primer flow is likely caused by one of two things.
1 The pressure of the ignition pushing the firing pin back into the firing pin hole and flowing around it. A stronger firing pin spring might solve your problem.
2) The alternative is that the firing pin hole is oversize relative to the firing pin. Did I read in one of your early posts that did something to the pin? If you did anything to reduce it's diameter you may have unintentionally caused the problem and should replace the pin. I don't know the Savage's firing pin specs but by way of example, on a standard Remington 700 the firing pin hole is .078" or 78 thou. The Remington firing pin is .074", or 4 thou smaller than the hole. Your Savage FP hole and FP should have similar tolerances.
I have a few suggestions.
Sort your brass by manufacturer and do your testing using the same brand for each powder charge weight and all weights if possible.
Do you do any brass prep? there are a long list of things you can do to the brass but a few easy ones are trim to length, sort into lots by weight. For more tips see h ttps://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/
If you are not already doing so, use a good scale and weigh each charge when load testing.
How precise is your scale? Are you weighing each charge or setting the powder dispenser and then throwing? A cheap scale that does not hold a true zero will mean your not really getting 24.0 every time. If you are throwing and not weighing each charge when testing again you can end up with too much variance.
You may not want to read this but I think you need to try a different bullet. Hornady says those 80 ElDMs require a minimum of 1-8 twist. According to factory specs the Savage has a 1-7 so it should be spinning them fast enough. Sometimes a barrel just does not want to shoot a specific bullet. Try a different, lighter weight bullet like the Sierra 69 SMK or Lapua Scenar. If those throw wild groups too then it's more likely the barrel not the bullets or powder.
That primer flow is likely caused by one of two things.
1 The pressure of the ignition pushing the firing pin back into the firing pin hole and flowing around it. A stronger firing pin spring might solve your problem.
2) The alternative is that the firing pin hole is oversize relative to the firing pin. Did I read in one of your early posts that did something to the pin? If you did anything to reduce it's diameter you may have unintentionally caused the problem and should replace the pin. I don't know the Savage's firing pin specs but by way of example, on a standard Remington 700 the firing pin hole is .078" or 78 thou. The Remington firing pin is .074", or 4 thou smaller than the hole. Your Savage FP hole and FP should have similar tolerances.
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I don't think I can really play with length with this setup. I can't really go shorter because it is already quite compressed, and I can't go longer because it is within 10 thou of the lands. As with the RPR 223, here again I am wishing I had a throat reamer so I could add 0.125" to the throat and load in the 2.525" range.
prairieguy, thanks for the advice. Some of it I do, like trimming to length and weight sorting (though I could go into tighter batches, right now I only have heavy and light batches), and using a Chargemaster that always shows the desired reading before I dump it in. I do have some Hornady 75gr bthp and Sierra 69gr I could try, left over from my AR days. I think that even if they group better at 200m, the inferior ballistics would not really be worth it. Though I have them and could probably find some days where 300m is the longest I will be shooting to burn them up.
I didn't modify the firing pin on this gun. I did modify it on the RPR 223.
I began mass loading last night, so I am fairly committed to this load for the next month or so and a couple planned range outings.
prairieguy, thanks for the advice. Some of it I do, like trimming to length and weight sorting (though I could go into tighter batches, right now I only have heavy and light batches), and using a Chargemaster that always shows the desired reading before I dump it in. I do have some Hornady 75gr bthp and Sierra 69gr I could try, left over from my AR days. I think that even if they group better at 200m, the inferior ballistics would not really be worth it. Though I have them and could probably find some days where 300m is the longest I will be shooting to burn them up.
I didn't modify the firing pin on this gun. I did modify it on the RPR 223.
I began mass loading last night, so I am fairly committed to this load for the next month or so and a couple planned range outings.
If you are serious about wanting to lengthen the throat why do you need to do it yourself? I am sure there is a decent gunsmith in the Saskatoon area who will be able to push out the throat for a reasonable fee.
In any event, best of luck to you in your quest for better accuracy.
I tried going to what people here consider the best gunsmith in Saskatoon with my RPR for that job. He turned me away after first telling me he would do it. I suppose he might be more willing to work on a Savage.
I suspect my quest for better accuracy has ended and I will just shoot the gun as is with ammo of current spec. Time to have fun with it.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The OP does have access to a 1200 yd-plus range at Nokomis, SK. The Saskatchewan Provincial Rifle Association currently operates at the North Star Range, located 6 miles east of Nokomis, NE 34-31-22 West of the 2nd. There are firing points at 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, 1000, 1100 and 1200 yds and 1665 yds from the fence to the south in the firing lane. The club has built firing points and a pretty good set of butts. The frames currently are cantilever style, not the chain and carrier style found on military ranges. They have built a furnished clubhouse with a full kitchen, power, water, heat and A/C, built a large cleaning/reloading shed, planted trees and more. (Shamelessly copied from their website - https://www.saskrifle.com/history/)
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