Flyers during load dev

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MartyK2500

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I have this .308 rifle I just cannot figure what's going on even if my life depended on it, looking for stuff I may have overlooked if you guys wish to participate.

This is my 4th .308, and the only one to shoot Federal 175s GMM bad, and the slowest barrel I have ever owned. This 26'' gives the same velocities as my 24''.
I keep a box or two of GMMs in my safe for load dev diagnostic, all my 3 other rifles just loved GMM and the low node (42.7gn Varget + 175SMK), this one just hates the low node.
Interestingly enough, barrel is slow, but I can get to higher loads than any other rifle owned before, without the slightest pressure sign, and beating velocity of all the others.
Never had a .308 shoot 175 SMKs over 2800fps without the slightest pressure sign, and this one pulls it off!
As with all my others that went well, I set the trigger as light as I can go, use a Harris bipod, and definitely use and focus on fundamentals while in load dev mode.

After 2 bad sessions, I double checked the following...
Took rail off and re-installed, put some new loctite and torqued accordingly, old install was not loose.
Took rifle out of stock, and checked MDT bedding for abnormal use or marks, everything was clean, even 70 rounds later no paint used off the action where it hits the bedding. Re-installed in stock with appropriate torque.
Re-installed rings, ARC-M10 rings we're still very solid at 55 in/lbs nothing had moved.
Looked inside the muzzle brake for signs of copper markings, none at all very clean.

This is my sweet spot so far during the load dev, with results.
200M, 5 shot groups. Labradar showed single digit ES and under 5 SD. Labradar is downstairs but I'll post avg fps as I remember them, may be off a few FPS.
Flyers we're at random, they could well be at the start/middle/end of string.
Barrel was allowed 12-15 minutes between each group to cool off, which I have never done before!

44.5gn Varget : 4 shots we're sub 1/2 moa, 1 shot was 2 1/2'' apart (2790fps)
44.8gn Varget : 4 shots we're sub 1/4 moa, 1 shot was 1 3/4'' apart (2805fps)
45.1gn Varget : 3 shots we're sub 1/2 moa, 2 other shots we're touching each other 2 1/4'' away from the main grouping (2820fps)
 
NaviDave said:
Did you weigh each bullet? All the same brass with flash holes uniformed? What brand of brass?
Click to expand...

Lapua brass, did not weigh bullets, but same lot of bullets have produced sub moa 10 shot group at 300M with my semi custom savage, and repeatable sub 3/4 moa 5 shot groups At 200M with my HS precision Savage.

This is my 4th precision rifle to enter the safe, and it definitely behaves different from my others in same twist same caliber.

I used to get fliers once per 60-70 rounds if I pulled a shot,
Today I had perfect sight picture and perfect follow through and it would just fly away.


Shooter1971 said:
What bbl manufacturer, what twist?
Click to expand...

Savage 110 Elite precision, fully factory set up.
1:10
 
Mystic Precision said:
Check throat length

will the bullet fully engrave with around 1/8" of the bearing surfact still in the case neck?

Pull the bolt apart and let's see the firing pin set up.

Jerry
Click to expand...


I will use COAL avg so that we are on the same page, as I know a few people who measure Ogive differently depending on gauges and set-up.
With 175 SMKs, touching lands @ 2.840'', loaded ammo at 2.820''

In the past we had this chat about how Savage rifles have a soft leade angle, making it hard to measure lands as you could easily push a bullet in them.
When I switched to IBI barrels I suddenly saw this very sharp leade angle, which had a definite land placement, no doubts about it.
This factory Savage has that sharp leade angle, measured lands 10 times in a row, pushing hard, pushing soft, and always got to the same results within 1 thou.

Will have to check a fired case with a new bullet to see how much of the bullet is left in the neck while touching the lands.
This brass is 1F Lapua, and was neck turned to 13 thou.

Here are firing pin pictures.
Thanks for helping diagnose this, as I find it tough that the coolest and highest MSRP Savage that I ever owned turns out to be a possible dud.
Ironically, since owning Savage rifles, it's the only one that I haven't tuned extraction, and brass flies the furthest I've ever seen a Savage do!

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EDIT
loaded a 2.840'' round, which is touching lands.
marked the exposed part, and removed bullet.
We have give or take 200 thous inside the neck while touching lands, which is closer to 1/4'' than a 1/8''

OgM71jPh.jpg


qjMqROJh.jpg
 
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Factory bbl is hit or miss (no pun intended). Does it have an accuracy guarantee? Sounds like you have some experience to know the difference from pulling a shot to 2 1/2 flyers. Try it with brake off? Send it back to savage. That kind of coin could get a custom bbl'd rig on a savage action. Why waste your components and time.
 
Shooter1971 said:
Factory bbl is hit or miss (no pun intended). Does it have an accuracy guarantee? Sounds like you have some experience to know the difference from pulling a shot to 2 1/2 flyers. Try it with brake off? Send it back to savage. That kind of coin could get a custom bbl'd rig on a savage action. Why waste your components and time.
Click to expand...

Bringing the rifle back and losing it for months on end, may be more painful than just sending Ryan S. @ IBI barrels a shout and have a new barrel made for it within a reasonable timeline.
For sure at this point, I may have been better off buying the MDT ACC for R700 footprint, and order another Bighorn Origin and recycle one of my old .308 IBI barrel, which has 2000 rounds through.
I believe this Savage 110 Elite is large shank, if it was regular shank I think the swap would be already over.

We'll see what we can find on the subject, I may be overlooking something and this Factory Savage heavy palma barrel may just impress me afterall...
 
Ok, looks like you have covered the normal things I would look for. Just keep an eye on neck clearance.... I doubt you will have an issue with a turned neck that thick BUT ???

So the variables left are Bedding, Optics, pressure.

Pressure is easy... labradar and track each shot on target vs velocity. If the flyer matches a big velocity change, then look at your scale, primer, firing pin spring.

If ALL your past rifles shoot a lower load charge, then drop BELOW that and work up. Maybe the flyer isn't a flyer at all but just part of your group that would 'fill in' if you shot 10 or 15rds groups... the current loads may be too hot????

If not, I would suspect the optic and put another on.

Finally, since you have other Savages, drop a barreled action you know shoots consistently and verify no issues with the bedding. Maybe the action is bending as your tighten it up? Maybe it is moving around under recoil?

If everything else checks out, then bye bye barrel.

Jerry
 
Ok, looks like you have covered the normal things I would look for. Just keep an eye on neck clearance.... I doubt you will have an issue with a turned neck that thick BUT ???
Bullets freely drop in fired casings, no resistance at all.
I check this now, since you are the one that caught on to this problem with my custom 6.5!

So the variables left are Bedding, Optics, pressure.

Pressure is easy... labradar and track each shot on target vs velocity. If the flyer matches a big velocity change, then look at your scale, primer, firing pin spring.
I did not check velocity shot after shot, but SD was sub 5 and ES single digit around 6-7.
Still using FX120 scale and CCI BR2 primers, I'll be honest in saying I don't know what to check for in a firing pin spring

If ALL your past rifles shoot a lower load charge, then drop BELOW that and work up. Maybe the flyer isn't a flyer at all but just part of your group that would 'fill in' if you shot 10 or 15rds groups... the current loads may be too hot????
Load dev went from 42.7gn to 45.4gn of Varget. In 0.3gn increments.
Groupings we're bad from 42.7 to 44.2gn, at 44.5 was getting nice and 44.8 was really good!
As I did put 4 in sub 1/4 moa at 200M and had 1 completely run away. Wasn't the last one either, was the middle one IIRC.
At 42.7gn, it was a tad slower than the same load in my classic style 24'', and I don't feel like launching 175 SMKs even slower than 2640fps
I got the federal GMM out for a spin, over MOA they won't shoot sub

If not, I would suspect the optic and put another on.
This may be a last resort but will get to it if push comes to shove.
Razor gen 2 4.5-27x56 are known to be tough, and it already has a track record of 3K+ fired shots through 2 previous rifles without this happening

Finally, since you have other Savages, drop a barreled action you know shoots consistently and verify no issues with the bedding. Maybe the action is bending as your tighten it up? Maybe it is moving around under recoil?
That's actually a good idea. My 24'' HS Savage is a steady 3/4 gun (in it's current stock), but never threw anything around on me.
I have not bed it yet I'm only relying on MDT's bedding, but compared to a previous project, the chassis and action contact areas are not using up at all

If everything else checks out, then bye bye barrel.
I fear this is the possible outcome. Factory brake is weird looking and no name type of thing, really tight too as a regular wrench didn't un-snug it (didn't try with barrel in vice yet).
Is it even worth a look to remove it you'd think?
 
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Do 5 groups at 44.8gr if you feel that is your best load and see what happens. If you are using bullet, primer and powder lot you have used ongoing, that is not the problem

Bad barrels usually do not do 1/4 MOA for 80% or more of their shots... they usually just spray.

that leads me to wonder about scope, rings and base... Had a rail go loose last week. It happens. Check the depth of the scope base bolts... you do not want contact with the barrel threads.

Bedding, barrel clearance, bipod

For firing pin spring, you just replace it and see if things improve. The factory 783 springs in the actions I have worked on were crap and eventually a good shooting rifle would start tossing flyers. Put in a Wolff and back to drilling small groups way out there.

Start looking for mechanical problem - I would put in a barreled action that you trust, put on the current scope and see what happends... you are confirming 2 things at the same time.

Jerry
 
I think that Jerry is on the right track - seems like a mechanical issue, but you might want to sample check the weights of your primers. I have a lot of BR2's where the weights vary from 5.10-5.38gr. I've gone to S&B primers for long distance (as I hate weighing primers). Weight sorting Lapua will also weed out extreme case weights (low or high).
 
I am in exactly the same boat with my Elite Precision .308 . I cannot get it to shoot the 175SMK and Varget at all . I've gone from 42.5 - 45.0 . .005 ,.010,.015 off as well as SAMMI spec . Random fliers continually . I'm about to try 4064 and possibly a different bullet as this is not working well .
 
HondaVTEC said:
I am in exactly the same boat with my Elite Precision .308 . I cannot get it to shoot the 175SMK and Varget at all . I've gone from 42.5 - 45.0 . .005 ,.010,.015 off as well as SAMMI spec . Random fliers continually . I'm about to try 4064 and possibly a different bullet as this is not working well .
Click to expand...

Yeah we’ve been chatting via PM you and I about this.
Did you try GMMs in yours?
Have you tried without the brake yet?

Just seen on Savage forums, on the 110 Elite certain brakes are so much overtorqued it creates a pressure on the muzzle, and that slacking or changing brake helps a bit, next visit I’m going brakeless.

Scout. Never measured anything and ALWAYS got excellent results.
Drop the same ammo made for the 110 Elite in my 10 HS, even if lands aren’t the same, and the HS just eats it up. Not that accurately though, but with no flyers at all.

Jerry. Got a wolff spring you can sell me and pack with my bullet order?
Sure willing to try this.
 
Mystic Precision said:
I have a reg short action spring I can sell you. you will need to chop to fit your firing pin.

Jerry
Click to expand...

No problem I have wire cutters and done it many times to fit gvt 1911 recoil springs in a commander 1911,
Isn't mine a regular short action why would it need chopping?
I imagine I just want it to end up at the same length as the factory one?
Anyhow please bill me the spring and throw it in the same box as my SMKs when you get them please!


Edit: Bare muzzle got a few steps in it!
Talk about an ugly duckling!

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Hello! Just as I came across this thread HondaVTEC sent in a chat through work so figured I would reply here. I talked to a friend at Savage and all reports have been that the 308's are tack drivers. The go-to test ammo has been the FGMM which apparently is lights out in it. The suggestion from Savage was along what Jerry had said, to go through each bolt/screw in the rifle to ensure that everything is tight, all screws in scope base, the scope rings, the action screws, the buttstock to the chassis and all the grip screws. Then to rule out the chassis, if you have a trusted stock or chassis swap it over and try that. After that, then it would be a call to Savage to look at it more in depth.
 
Hi Ryan, thanks for chiming in!

Tonight, I have just finished a full disassembly and reassembly.
Everything was rock solid tight, and hard to remove.

Buttstock and grip real tight, action screws set to 65in/lbs while action is torqued vertically as to sit recoil lug well in chassis, rail was tight but I still took it off and reinstalled with blue loctite and 20 in/lbs, rings we're tight but re-installed with front ring touching front rail recoil lug and rear ring touching rear recoil lug, both rings we're torqued to 55 in/lbs for both rail and scope (ARC M10 it's in their design!).
Re-installed the razor gen 2 on this rifle as it always performed well for the past 3000 rounds before getting this rifle, it's one of the next things to swap out if ever next range test sucks balls.

Took funky brake off, as for some reason I don't trust it.
That sucker almost took my 200 lbs of body weight to remove with barrel well anchored in my viper barrel vice.
Officially the hardest brake to remove since I shoot!

Friday, I'm going out for another test session.

3x GMM 175s at 100M for warm up, wait 7-8 minutes
5x GMM 175s at 200M, wait 10 mins
5x 175 SMKs with 44.4gn Varget, wait 10 mins
5x 175 SMKs with 44.8gn Varget, wait 10 mins
5x 175 SMKs with 45.1gn Varget, call it a day

Failing this, I will swap stocks with my proven savage, retest both rifles with GMM.
Failing this I'll swap scopes
Failing this I'm switching firing pin spring

Let's hope I don't spend summer chasing my tail!
And I would like to thank you for the inside about it shooting well GMMs, it will serve me as a baseline when testing.
As the 2 last sessions it did not behave with this ammo.

Edit : If I call Savage I'm ready to bet I wouldn't have a replacement before 2021, I bet Ryan S. at IBI could spin me a barrel under 6 weeks time and we'd be likely over with it.
 
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