Is a 45-70 a 'big bore'?

is a 45-70 a 'big bore'


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I really wonder why the editor thought there was 'no comparison' between the 375 H&H and a decently loaded (i.e., Garrett Hammerhead) .45-70. I would also have liked for him to investigate more thoroughly why a 535 grain cast bullet, chugging along at about 900 fps, went right through a 2,000+ pound Bison. It would be interesting to test the penetration of the same heavy bullet at velocities above the speed of sound in a fluid medium and at velocities below the speed of sound in a fluid medium. I think that would explain a lot of the phenomenon like the Bison. In other words, I think that if a thorough test was done in a tissue/fluid medium and you plotted penetration vs. velocity, you would see two peaks, with a sharp drop around the speed of sound in a fluid medium, and then a slow climb back up to the former level at a velocity significantly higher than the one at the first peak. Resistance is much higher above the speed of sound that it is below. With supersonic bullets in a tissue medium, the tissue ahead of the bullet seems to be compressed to the extent that even after the bullet slows to sub-sonic, it decelerates much quicker than the bullet that stayed sub-sonic the entire time. This has been discussed at length in another forum some time ago, with general field data seeming to back it up. However, I have never seen an actual plot from a rigorously controlled experiment where all other variables are kept constant. (Shooting into a dead animal has too many variables in bones, flesh and organs)
 
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Win 38-55 said:
I really wonder why the editor thought there was 'no comparison' between the 375 H&H and a decently loaded (i.e., Garrett Hammerhead) .45-70.
Well you can write and ask him. I think the real question is, what would you want to be carrying in the following instance?

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Posted by Andy:

I was surfing on my Mom's computer and found some info on the Hodgdon site. . .

What kind of computer does your Mom have, Andy? :D
 
Well you can write and ask him. I think the real question is, what would you want to be carrying in the following instance?

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I hate it every time I'm in a situation like that.:) However, if I was, and faced with a choice between a 375 H&H with a 300 grain solid at 2,400 fps (3,830 ft-lbs of energy), or a 45-70 with a 400 grain solid at 2,100 fps (3,913 ft-lbs energy), I'd definitely go with the 45-70. Although the 45-70 has only slightly more energy, it has more momentum than the 375 H&H (120 ft-lbs vs 103 ft-lbs) and in my opinion, momentum is more relevant to penetration than energy. Of course, the larger surface area of the .458 bullet might offset that somewhat, but it would make a better wound channel. Momentum is also very helpful in keeping a bullet going in a straight line. At the very least, I certainly would not say that there is 'no comparison' between a 375 H&H and a stiffly loaded 45-70.

However, I plan to keep situations like that down to a minimum.
 
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Between a 375 and 45-70 in that case I'd definitely go 45-70.

But I'd MUCH rather have a 458, Lott, 470NE - preferably a 585 Nyati
 
I was not talking about a 375 v's 45.70. What rifle would you want to stop, not just hunt, but stop, a dangerous game in a charge.

BTW, it looks to me that the PH has a 416 rigby by the barrel and scope!
 
Gibbs, that will have to be a brain shot. That is the only thing that will stop it in its tracks from that angle. Since it is a brain shot, any caliber that will deliver a bullet into the brain will do. At this point, I'm stymied. I have no experience with elephants and how far the bullet has to penetrate to reach their brain from that angle. If a 303 British solid will do it, then I suppose it will be just as dead and stopped as if a fellow used a LAW. My point is, from that angle it is all about bullet placement and penetration. Size does not matter once those two things have been accomplished. (i.e., a .458 bullet from different cartridges, all plowing through the brain at various speeds, will all do the job).
 
Gibbs, that will have to be a brain shot. That is the only thing that will stop it in its tracks from that angle. Since it is a brain shot, any caliber that will deliver a bullet into the brain will do. At this point, I'm stymied. I have no experience with elephants and how far the bullet has to penetrate to reach their brain from that angle. If a 303 British solid will do it, then I suppose it will be just as dead and stopped as if a fellow used a LAW. My point is, from that angle it is all about bullet placement and penetration. Size does not matter once those two things have been accomplished. (i.e., a .458 bullet from different cartridges, all plowing through the brain at various speeds, will all do the job).

Yes, he is aiming for the brain! It has been quite a while since I have seen a elephant and I have never hunted or shot one. However the elephant brain is about the size of a loaf of bread and buried about 3' or so inside a head which is made of honeycomb bone.

The point is, bigger is better, There was a reason for those big bullets the majority of british and european hunters loved. And the answer is simple, penetration, penetration, penetration, penetration! There is a big difference in the .458 bullets that the 45/70 uses and that used by the big 450's. The 45/70 used a 405 grn Hard cast bullet while the others use a 500 grn. In the case of elephant, these are always solids.

The good solids used by elephant hunters, always peneterated in a straight line. Even Bell, shooting small bores, wanted this. You simply cannot guarentee this in the 45/70. Sectional density, the indicatior of straight line penetration is against you. It may happen, but it may not and then you are in for a VERY bad day. Simply put, it behoves you to take the right rifle and cartridge for the job you are doing.

When you are hunting game like elephant you are a novice, I am a novice. Remember noone today as anything like the experence the old africaian hands had.
 
And don't forget - slow speeds and heavy bullets have had LOTS of experience in Africa. For more than 50 years before the 'nitro' cartridges came out, the black powder express and bore guns ruled. If they offered superior penetration and killing power on actual game, then the rule of thumb would be 1500 fps. But it's not, it's more like 2200-2400 fps with a .300 SD or better bullet. They didn't just randomly pick those numbers, and it's not like they didn't TRY alternatives.
 
Gibbs, I would not recommend a hard cast bullet in the 45/70 ... not even for Whitetail deer. I know the trend is now toward hardcast, but they tend to shatter at the higher velocities. I know a fellow who took a 45/70 to Africa last year and found exactly that. The PH wants his clients to use the same type of solids that are used in the 458 Mag. (I'm referring to what is becoming the annual levergunners safari, in case anyone is interested in going next year).

Regarding the idea that whatever is in use now is the best killer, that may be the case, but maybe not. I've noticed two trends in modern North American hunting. First, the trend to use more powerful cartridges like the 338 Win Mag, the 300 Win Mag, and the 7mm Mag for animals such as Whitetail deer and Black bear. There is always the thinking that bigger and faster is better. It might be, but then again, maybe there are other cartridges that will do the job just as well. I've found that the old cartridges shooting slow, heavy bullets kill just as effectively, if not more so, and I'm not the only one. The second trend I've noticed is toward hard cast bullets. These have become popular, I believe, because folks don't want to be bothered working up a soft cast load, which can be tricky. Hard cast bullets may be easier to find an accurate load for, but they can break apart on game. Now I'm not saying that the newer African big game cartridges are not as good as some of the older ones. In fact, without any experience to say the contrary, I believe that the newer African cartridges are far better than the old ones (in the same way that a 338 Win Mag is better for groundhogs than 44-40). Both kill them dead but the newer, more powerful ones do it more impressively. For all I know, bullet construction and weight may be much more important that variations in velocity.

Last year was the first year of the levergunners safari. This year, there was another and plans are already underway for another one next year. The 45/70 is emerging as the levergun of choice for African game, for those who want to use leverguns. I don't think I or anyone else (in their right mind) would argue that the 45/70 is better than the modern, powerful African cartridges. I expect that those big, powerful African cartridges are better ... at least it seems that way to me without any experience to say the contrary. What my lucky levergun friends might argue is that the 45/70 seems to kill just as well as the more powerful cartridges (in the same way that the lowly 44-40 kills groundhogs just as well as the 375 H&H). The bottom line is that, in spite of what various writers speculate about the 45/70 in Africa, it simply has not had enough experience there to see how it does with the same solids that are used in the more modern guns. The PH that organizes the levergunners Safari, seems to recommend 1,800 fps, at least 400 grains, and solids for the 45/70. That may change, however, with further experience. Is the 45/70, properly loaded with solids, a good African cartridge? I don't know and no one can really say until it has been tried a lot more. My experience with Groundhogs is that, although a 458 Mag is more powerful, a 22 long rifle hollow point seems to kill them just as well. My experience with Whitetail deer has led me to believe that a soft cast bullet chugging along out of a 38/55 will kill a Whitetail deer just as well as a 338 Win Mag. Unfortunately, I do not have experience in Africa and my budget tells me that I am unlikely to ever have any experience in Africa, so I can only look on with envy at my levergunner friends are doing it and, hopefully, over time, see how some of the more powerful levergun cartridges do there, properly loaded for African game.
 
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Win 38-55, just curious, you've mentioned hard cast bullets shattering. Any idea of the BHN level of hardness that this could happen at? Would this be linotype bullets that have been tempered or water quenched to increase the hardness rating?
 
Win 38-55, the question regarding the 45.70 relates to its suitability when dangerous game is on the menue. No one would consider the 45.70 is unsuitable for general hunting, within it's envelope.
 
Johnn, I've read discussions of this on another forum by those who have used them, but I can't recall the BHN. If I recall correctly, it was anything over 18 BHN and certainly anything over 20. Now I confess to using hard cast bullets in my 30-30, where I push the bullet out at almost 2,200 fps. Others have warned me that the bullet will likely shatter. This is why I'm moving to a heavier bullet 177 grains, that goes slower ... around 1,900 fps. But I'm only shooting thin-skinned game, Whitetail deer, so this should be fine.
 
Johnn, I've read discussions of this on another forum by those who have used them, but I can't recall the BHN. If I recall correctly, it was anything over 18 BHN and certainly anything over 20. Now I confess to using hard cast bullets in my 30-30, where I push the bullet out at almost 2,200 fps. Others have warned me that the bullet will likely shatter. This is why I'm moving to a heavier bullet 177 grains, that goes slower ... around 1,900 fps. But I'm only shooting thin-skinned game, Whitetail deer, so this should be fine.
I used to do all my casting but there is a guy locally that I now get all my cast bullets from.:D His quality, variety, availability and price hardly make it worth my while casting, especially as casting isn't exactly my favorite aspect of reloading.:rolleyes:
My standard or 'go to' for casting metal was wheel weights, and if I could get it, linotype was sort of # 1, which I used to save for .45ACP & 32 S&W pistol bullets for competition shoots. Any of the cast bullets I've used previously or get now have been 'pounded' through a variety of mediums and I've never noticed any evidence of shattering. While some of them were pretty badly deformed and mangled, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never experienced it.
I went to my 'casting guy' today to pick up a variety of bullets for my .45-70 and mentioned this thread. He informed me that linotype bullets that have been heat treated can reach a Brinnel hardness, BNH, of up to and exceeding 30 and have been known to be brittle enough to shatter.
When I got home I did a little reading in the 3rd Edition of Lyman's Handbook of Cast Bullets. There is a informative bit of info and chart on Composition & Hardness of common Bullet Metals. On a following page is an informative section on Heat Treatment of Wheelweight Alloy. It hasn't increased my interest anywhere close enough to get me casting again:p but it was informative reading.
Oh, on the chart I made mention of it lists the hardness, BNH, of the following as;
Pure lead 5
Wheelweights 9
Linotype 22
There are others but those are the basics.
- Johnn
 
There is an excellent site here http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm and you probably know about this one http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
Thanks for the site addresses, especially the CastBulletNotes. I've quickly read through a fair amount of it. Although I still have no intention of getting back into casting,;) so far I've found it very informative and considerably more in depth than any other source I've worked with. I'll have to pass the sites on to the guy I deal with, unless he's already aware of them. Thanks again, much appreciated.:)
 
I'm thinking though that the Garretts mentioned are hard cast, are they not?

What kind of solids is the PH calling for. It would be cool to know the best actual bullet. Particularly one that could be crimped in a 45-70. Particularly of interest would be anything we can actually get up here!
 
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