Bird Shot in your Home Defense Shotgun

B said:
Experts are usually people with great experience and qualifications. That will do...
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What qualifications, and what experience. Be specific. Great? How great?

Should someone have actually used bird shot in a shotgun to kill a person in order to lay claim to having experience? Is killing just one person enough, or should you have killed hundreds, by day and night, in all terrain and weather conditions, with a wide array impliments?

Qualified? in what way? by who?

Does qualification include education? Education in law, in physics? in Firearms manufacture?

We are talking about the effects of a relatively uncomplicated object, in flight, colliding with another, rather complex object, and predicting the consequences of that collision with about 100 or more uncontrolled variables, and the circumstances under which a person may or may not choose to cause such a collision, and the 100 or more factors that may affect such a choice, including an infinite number of variables leading up to the altercation that gives rise to the choice to initiate the collision, and the legal framework with which such a decision may be morally judged.

You aren't going to find a definitive expert on this subject.

As soon who has thoroughly studied the use of bird shot on surrogates of human targets, I am happy to advocate the use of bird shot on human targets under certain circumstances. While I do not in any way pretend to be an expert on self defense, I can tell you from personal experience that bird shot on humans can win you a gun fight.
 
B said:
The likelihood of a home invasion requiring deadly force in response is so low this discussion is basically just mental masturbation.
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True, and yet for some reason we spend much more time on this subject than we do discussing the correct tensile strength of seatbelts or the appropriate size of fire extinguisher for a residential kitchen. Maybe there is something to it.
 
Panzer Guns and Ammo said:
I did some test and I would only use bird as a last resort for home defence, very little stopping power and beside you would have to repaint the entire hallway :)
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Well I mean that really is the debate isn't. What would you rather?

I'd rather repaint the hallway than have a funeral for a loved one. I've seen slugs and buck go through human surrogates and still have sufficient energy to be human targets in depth. That doesn't happen with bird shot.

There is a right tool for every job, and there is always a consequence for using the wrong tool. Each person gets to decide for themselves what they can live with.
 
Cameron SS said:
Well I mean that really is the debate isn't. What would you rather?

I'd rather repaint the hallway than have a funeral for a loved one. I've seen slugs and buck go through human surrogates and still have sufficient energy to be human targets in depth. That doesn't happen with bird shot.

There is a right tool for every job, and there is always a consequence for using the wrong tool. Each person gets to decide for themselves what they can live with.
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Correct, but personally, my home defences shotgun in this situation would be loaded with 3 rubber slugs and then buck, but that's me.
 
Having been shot in the ass and lower back with rock salt out of a 12g in my younger days, I consider myself an expert and will state that bird shot, while it may not have the stopping power of other projectiles, would make whoever was trying to do you harm, get the heck out of dodge.
 
Picked up some Winchester segmented slugs they seem to be pretty good from the gel tests i've seen. As for the repainting the hallway and no stopping power what kind of shotgun you using ? A blast from even up to 20yards to the chest in going to impact with far far far more ft/lbs of energy then say a 9mm and seeing how my shotgun blows 3" holes through 1/2 plywood using birdshot at 20 yards I am unsure how your figuring that does not hurt a human being ? it would blow a coyote in half
 
B said:
The likelihood of a home invasion requiring deadly force in response is so low this discussion is basically just mental masturbation.
.
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Masturbation? Like the masturbating, high on meth and bath salts, thick leather trench coat wearing, invincible burglar everyone seems to be preparing for on this thread. Sure, you should always prepare for the worst and be ready for it. For me, preparing for the worst means preparing for collateral damage which means reducing chances of it happening through the use of light birdshot loads.

Personal preferences based on MY experience and knowledge; I'd rather use birdshot in the event of a 3 AM Alamo style battle in the close proximity of my wife and kids.
 
Speaking of the cleanup, better have something to wipe up the blood that will be coming out of your ears after firing a shotgun in such a confined space. It will help though if you keep your mouth open.
 
Ravage said:
Picked up some Winchester segmented slugs they seem to be pretty good from the gel tests i've seen. As for the repainting the hallway and no stopping power what kind of shotgun you using ? A blast from even up to 20yards to the chest in going to impact with far far far more ft/lbs of energy then say a 9mm and seeing how my shotgun blows 3" holes through 1/2 plywood using birdshot at 20 yards I am unsure how your figuring that does not hurt a human being ? it would blow a coyote in half
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This is probably the only problem I have here. You are basing your self defense choice on the fact your particular shell will penetrate plywood..? There isn't a birdshot load on the planet that will "blow a coyote in half". I know this because I more often than not use #2 3.5" 12 gauge shells to kill the Coyotes I call into my backyard. Even the ones I call in very, very close are far from that.

I never said it couldn't do the job but it's never going to be as good as buckshot. Birdshot is always going to create a horrible but shallow wound. No doubt most people will be dissuaded or incapacitated but it's hardly any guarantee. In this already unlikely scenario I'd rather be prepared for pretty much anything. That's why my choice in reality is a semi-auto .223. Maybe they will have body armor?
 
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Cameron SS said:
What qualifications, and what experience. Be specific. Great? How great?

Should someone have actually used bird shot in a shotgun to kill a person in order to lay claim to having experience? Is killing just one person enough, or should you have killed hundreds, by day and night, in all terrain and weather conditions, with a wide array impliments?

Qualified? in what way? by who?

Does qualification include education? Education in law, in physics? in Firearms manufacture?

We are talking about the effects of a relatively uncomplicated object, in flight, colliding with another, rather complex object, and predicting the consequences of that collision with about 100 or more uncontrolled variables, and the circumstances under which a person may or may not choose to cause such a collision, and the 100 or more factors that may affect such a choice, including an infinite number of variables leading up to the altercation that gives rise to the choice to initiate the collision, and the legal framework with which such a decision may be morally judged.

You aren't going to find a definitive expert on this subject.

As soon who has thoroughly studied the use of bird shot on surrogates of human targets, I am happy to advocate the use of bird shot on human targets under certain circumstances. While I do not in any way pretend to be an expert on self defense, I can tell you from personal experience that bird shot on humans can win you a gun fight.
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No need for definitive, there are plenty of people out there that would be considered experts on something like this. If you really need to have it explained in every detail I can't help you. I don't really care if you shot anyone with birdshot. I don't know any of the details and it's not likely it's a hobby for you so really, it may prove something to you but not me. I haven't shot anyone with birdshot but I do know from first hand experience that even shots to important areas can take a while to incapacitate someone intent on killing you.

Different experiences will lead people to different conclusions about different things... Yours has lead you to one and so have mine. I have no issue with others choosing birdshot, it's their lives not mine and really it will probably do. Choose it based on your realistic needs though. If you think your family is going to start doing jumping jacks or otherwise trying to make themselves as large a target as possible to put you in the Uber unlikely scenario of having much of a chance of hitting them then by all means... Don't choose it based on the fact it tears through something a pellet gun can zip through though.
 
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I always get a laugh when I read threads like this.

Always the same old song and dance... You need slugs, you need buck shot... you need pure death and maximum destruction... What a load of garbage.

If someone starts shooting at you with any shot gun any sane person is going to cease and desist. You are not going to start questioning what ammo he is using. And those that are not sane after being hit with #9s from anywhere inside a home is going to be having a real bad day.

Even if they don't die, they will be seriously incapacitated. And to that point, what is this obsession with actually killing the perp? Incapacitated is better than dead unless you are the perp.

As for being incompetent for not being prepared... Who is? We live in Canada. Our guns are locked in a safe. Ammo is somewhere else. Even if we have the hardware... None of us are prepared these days unless we are on our way to shoot or hunt. So why would you have 00 buck ammo handy anyway? If you did, I bet some prosecuting attorney would interpret that as premeditated. You'd actually look more innocent if you used bird shot.

If we are talking about some sort of faux military scenario, that's a different story. I would not suggest that we should send the military into a war zone with my skeet load... Unless its for the kitchen staff.
 
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Maple57 said:
I always get a laugh when I read threads like this.

Always the same old song and dance... You need slugs, you need buck shot... you need pure death and maximum destruction... What a load of garbage.

If someone starts shooting at you with any shot gun any sane person is going to cease and desist. You are not going to start questioning what ammo he is using. And those that are not sane after being hit with #9s from anywhere inside a home is going to be having a real bad day.

Even if they don't die, they will be seriously incapacitated. And to that point, what is this obsession with actually killing the perp? Incapacitated is better than dead unless you are the perp.

As for being incompetent for not being prepared... Who is? We live in Canada. Our guns are locked in a safe. Ammo is somewhere else. Even if we have the hardware... None of us are prepared these days unless we are on our way to shoot or hunt. So why would you have 00 buck ammo handy anyway? If you did, I bet some prosecuting attorney would interpret that as premeditated. You'd actually look more innocent if you used bird shot.

If we are talking about some sort of faux military scenario, that's a different story. I would not suggest that we should send the military into a war zone with my skeet load... Unless its for the kitchen staff.
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Lol. Your reasoning is why there are threads like this. Some people just don’t get it.
 
Okay, realistically a mag fed semi pistol or rifle in a middle of the road caliber is far better than a shotgun, especially with storage laws being what they are.
 
rommelrommel said:
Okay, realistically a mag fed semi pistol or rifle in a middle of the road caliber is far better than a shotgun, especially with storage laws being what they are.
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That's true enough. Getting access to a magazine and rifle/pistol, then cramming in that magazine and preparing the gun to be fired, probably takes about the same time as accessing a shotgun and loading one shell. Successive shells loaded would each take about as long as loading another magazine. So a pistol or rifle is going to let one take multiple shots in the time it takes to even half load a shotgun. Good point.
 
Okay okay... if the intruder is hopped up on meth or something and weighs 400lbs, built like a truck ....birdshot will still do the job if you aim for his face. See what I did there? No? Birdshot.
 
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