Why won't my t3 group with 75 grain AMAX's?

prosper said:
Honestly, if it won't shoot amax's, it's going to be for sale. Other match bullets perform poorly on varmints. I require a bullet with a high BC AND good terminal effects on gophers.
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Why not try 60grn Vmax bullets for your long shots on gophers, more velocity = more aerobatics. You seem to be stuck on the 75grn Amax Match bullets. Plus the Vmax are built for explosive action where the Amax are thicker skinned which means they won't be as frangible.

I personally want to try the lightest bullet my gun will shoot a decent group with to get the velocity transfer for maximum damage and entertainment in the gopher patch. If I can get 40grn bullets shooting sub MOA at 100 I will load a ####load of them up and for the longer shots I would work up a load with 60grn Vmax bullets.

Just my $0.02

Richard
 
"...good terminal effects on gophers..." Any bullet will have that. The Richardson Ground Squirrel only weighs a maximum of 600 GRAMS. And that's before they go into hibernation.
Your rifle just doesn't like those bullets with those powders. Try more powders and change primers.
In any case, buying a rifle for a particular bullet make or weight just doesn't work. You buy the rifle then search for a load it likes.
 
Anyone who's ever shot gophers knows what I mean. There's a HUGE difference in terminal effect between a bthp match and frangible varmint pill.

I don't care what load this rifle likes. I don't care if the amax isn't the most accurate load, this isn't a competition gun. I do expect reasonable, usable accuracy with it, and if I can't get that I'll sell it and get another one, and repeat till I find one that works.
 
prosper said:
Anyone who's ever shot gophers knows what I mean. There's a HUGE difference in terminal effect between a bthp match and frangible varmint pill.

I don't care what load this rifle likes. I don't care if the amax isn't the most accurate load, this isn't a competition gun. I do expect reasonable, usable accuracy with it, and if I can't get that I'll sell it and get another one, and repeat till I find one that works.
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Why would you continue with a lost cause? If the Tic Tac isn't for you why try another? It'll only be the same thing, unless of course, you meant selling it and getting another (off brand) rifle?
 
I shoot gophers with my 270WSM, 130gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and 58.5gr of H4350.

234yds...POOF! no more gopher.

:D

My Tikka Tactical 24" 1-8" twist in .223 likes the Hornady BTHPs all the way up to 75gr (-0.15" from lands), and the Sierra 69s (mag length), shooting 1/2 MOA all the way to 300yds.

I have a box of AMAX I haven't tried yet. Now you've made me curious.

I use varget, but use LESS powder in what I AM shooting. 23.5gr behind the 75gr Hornady match bullets was good for .400 groups at 100M.

I'm wondering......try using less powder than you'd expect and then work up to see if there's a trend as you speed them up.

Or.....like you said, sell it.

I would also check mechanical issues with the rifle....barrel float, action screws, bedding just in case the vibrations of the heavier round are upsetting the gun.

???
 
prosper said:
Anyone who's ever shot gophers knows what I mean. There's a HUGE difference in terminal effect between a bthp match and frangible varmint pill.
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I absolutely agree. I would also add the velocity dimension to that. Speed makes a huge difference, and contributes to the 'Flying starfish' that I love watching!.

prosper said:
I don't care what load this rifle likes. I don't care if the amax isn't the most accurate load, this isn't a competition gun. I do expect reasonable, usable accuracy with it, and if I can't get that I'll sell it and get another one, and repeat till I find one that works.
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Been there... though I would look at re-barreling as an option. Get the barrel in exactly the specs you want. Putting a Gaillard or a Krieger on there would make that gun shine.
 
If I remember correctly with Varget and my .223 loads (I load 75 grainers) - it started to compress the loads very early. Have you tried H335 near max loads too? It is hard to say why the groups aren't good. If it was me I would try another bullet in the same weight clase (i.e. 77grain VLD) or even move down to 60 grain bullets to troubleshoot - rather then sell the rifle. I have found that most barrels can be fussy in load development with some bullets but generally not all bullets. Tikka makes good barrels - as bullets are cheaper to change then rifles I would try another bullet. BTW you did say it shoots well with lighter bullets I would give it another go...
 
These are coated.

Just got back from the range, and this thing is so damn frustrating. In any given 5-shot group, 3 will be all nicely clustered together with 2 flyers opening the group up to 2". I did manage to shoot a 1" group with varget, it looks like a vertical string, but all 5 shots are touching or nearly so. This is a little encouraging. If I can maintain 1 moa out to 600 or 700 yards I'll be very happy. I've heard that these long VLD BT's take a while to settle down, so next time I'm out I'll shoot at 200 and 300

I bought a pound of Benchmark on the way from the range to try next time out
 
I was shooting 26gr of BLC-2 over a Fed 205M primer in LC brass with the bullets seated 15 thousandths into the lands. I did not crono them but from the drop I figure they were right around 2900fps .
 
prosper said:
These are coated.

Just got back from the range, and this thing is so damn frustrating. In any given 5-shot group, 3 will be all nicely clustered together with 2 flyers opening the group up to 2". I did manage to shoot a 1" group with varget, it looks like a vertical string, but all 5 shots are touching or nearly so. This is a little encouraging. If I can maintain 1 moa out to 600 or 700 yards I'll be very happy. I've heard that these long VLD BT's take a while to settle down, so next time I'm out I'll shoot at 200 and 300

I bought a pound of Benchmark on the way from the range to try next time out
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Yeah I don't know what's up with groups like those! Last time I was at the range with my Savage I was trying some Hornady 68 gr HPBT, 24.4 gr Varget, Win Brass, CCI BR4, 15 thou off the lands. I was shooting at 200 m, and 2 of the 3 five shot groups I tried had 3 shots in 0.2-0.3 MOA, while the other two shots opened them up to 1.5 MOA. It could just be my shooting...
 
Well, I'm making progress, I guess. Benchmark seems promising, and there appear to be 'nodes' with varget at ~25.0 and 26.0 grains. Not good, but a lot better than the ~3" groups it produces with other charges.

Benchmark looks promising, I'll have to try some more loads around the 23.5 range and see what happens.

Anyway, it's still not where I'd like, but approaching 'usable' accuracy levels ~1 MOA. If they'll maintain 1 MOA out at range.


t3-223-75amax-2.jpg
 
Not trying to be an ass but you really should get a chronograph - it seems like an unnecessary cost but if u really want to get serious about understanding your loads you need to know the velocity of what you are shooting. Plus it makes it easier to come up with "predicted" data for longer ranges. I used to think not having a chronograph was all good. But I splurged and bought a cheapo Alpha Chrony and it has made such a difference in understanding what is going on with a particular load. Right now with your .223 not shooting well all you can do is hope that Varget is taking your 75 grain bullet to the velocity "should" be according to your manual. BUT a key thing to note is that I have found load variances from manual to manual to be about .5 - 1 grain of powder. This could mean a lot if you are even close to approaching max pressure/load with your rifle. Only real way to tell unless you already have gone too far (i.e. blown primer/ruptured case/etc) is a chronograph. An example with your load is that you could think (based on your manual and rightfully so) that you are approaching "max load/velocity" but in reality your barrel/chamber/powder lot/etc might still be need more oomph to get a big 75 gr bullet to stabilize.

On a side note, good move switching powders for your 223. Varget is really good powder but in my experience it wasn't too great with a 223. I have never tried benchmark but I like Hodgon powders a lot. Another thing you might want to try is not shooting moly bullets (I am making this assumption because you said you were using AMAX coated) some bbls don't take too well to moly
 
I have a chrony, but I don't bother measuring a load till I find one that shoots. Top varget charges are producing pressure signs, so I dropped back from them, and am using medium to max loads.

Plus, an 8" twist should stabilize a 75 grain amax right down to 1800 or so fps, so MV isn't the problem.
 
75 Amax in a T3 heavy

I have had some experience with the T3 Varmint in 223 and bunch of experience with the 75 Amax - I use them out to 1,000 yards at paper targets. I suspect you are suffering a combination of 3 things - bullet inconsistency, too fast powder and runout.

Use a comparator and seat each bullet. measure accross the comparator to the bullet base. It is not unusual to get two distinct lengths in a box of Amax's, often as much as 10/1000" apart. Sorting bullets this way will as well as by overall length increases the chance of getting consistent contact on the ogive by length. Next you need to slow the powder down. I find Varget, at anything above 23.5g, gives pretty big velocity deviations over a chrono. I prefer Vihtavouri N550, circa 24g, gives much more consistent velocities. Lastly, you want to get the bullets well forward but retain at least one calibre of shank in the neck (which puts the boattail in the case - so try not to compress the powder too, too much). On my loads that gives about 2.450" overall with the 75 Amax.

Your dies might be causing runout on the bullet. Get a guage from Sinclairs and measure the completed round. You need to be looking for only a thou or two of runout to get the groups I imagine you are looking for (and I don't care whose dies they are, the proof of the runout is in the guage).

If it still don't work, send it back to Stoegers and tell them the tale. At the least they can get advice from Finland because an 8" twist sure should shoot
 
I have a runout gauge; max runout is .002. I'm loading with Collet dies.

Best results thus far come from about .005" jam into the leade, but I've tried them as far back as .020.

I suppose I could try 4350, but at 100% load density, Varget should be anything but too fast.

I have also considered calling tikka, but I'm not quite done playing just yet
 
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