Intro Rimfire precision rifle 22lr query

[enefgee]

The problem with the short barrel criteria is they totally miss the boat on balance.

PRS shooting is all about how the rifle balances on the obstacle. Put a short barrel on it and the center of gravity is in the butt and now you are steering the rifle with your unstable body.

What moves more... You or the obstacle?

You dont need max velocity anyway. You can always select a bullet that goes the speed you want it to go given the barrel length you have.

Bottom line is a longer heavier barrel has more static inertia, steers better, wobbles less and provides a better balance point.

And then there's the center fire training aspect of the argument.... Why use a 22 that does not weigh and handle like our center fire especially in the case of Voodoo who has gone to great lengths to provide a product that replicates center fire?

I run a CZ452 in an Aeron stock with two slabs of cold rolled steel screwed to the fore end to get the balance right, (because the barrel is not long and heavy enough) but I would much prefer a longer heavier barrel like this old BRNO target rifle. A buddy of mine happens to have one and I would trade him in a second.

Is that a Model 4 with the biathlon barrel - I had one that I sold for "crazy" money, wish I hadn't, that gun was insanely accurate

 

[Maple57]

I disagree, a shorter barrel is easier to move around, shoot off-hand, more rigid and therefore usually as or more accurate than longer barrels. Of course this is a 22 so if its a heavy barrel it's already rigid enough. Then there's the ELR guys running 30 something inch barrels but they are really trying to take advantage of a speed gain that doesn't really exist with 22LR.
All of the velocity and length data I have read and my own experience leads me to believe that using standard velocity ammo you don't see any appreciable decrease in velocity until you go below 12". Have several 12.5" barrels and they shoot around 1065 fps (using Labradar) with CCI Standard (published 1070 fps)
Of course there is the issue of balance and that may depend on the stock/chassis, scope, butt stock etc. You can always add weight but its a lot harder to remove it.
My 2c anyways

I'm confused as you seem to be contradicting yourself.

You state that ELR guys like a long barrel, but claim advantages of a short barrel.

My point was in reference to PRS style shooting specifically where balance is key and there is very little off hand shooting done.

Are you advocating for short barrels for PRS or just all around plinking comfort?

I seem to be missing any coherent point or solid ground other than you clearly disagree with mine.

 

[scourge18a]

You state that ELR guys like a long barrel, but claim advantages of a short barrel.

My point was in reference to PRS style shooting specifically where balance is key and there is very little off hand shooting done.

My understanding is that ELR shooters use longer barrels for the velocity gain. They have much more powder to burn, heavy for the caliber bullets with slower powders. Again a 22 LR doesn't gain much speed past a 16" barrel. Another difference is that they generally run a much thicker and therefore more rigid barrel profile (1.75" in many cases and some 2" structured). There are advantages and disadvantages to longer and shorter barrels. More speed and sometimes balance from a longer barrel depending on your set up. More rigidity and maneuverability with a shorter barrel.

I haven't shot all that many rimfire PRS style matches but every one had stages with off hand shooting from various positions. I am a proponent of the rifle only being as heavy as it needs to be. You can spot your shots with a 12 lb 308, a 22 doesn't need to be heavy. Mine is under 9 pounds and balances perfectly on an arca rail in front of the magwell.

Again just my 2c

 

[markt]

I like shorter barrels for their ease of movement in and out of barricade ports and the option to add weight to the stock/chassis if necessary.

On the question of balance for NRL22-style matches, is it best to have the centre of gravity (CG) somewhere slightly ahead of the magwell/barricade stop?

 

[Maple57]

I like shorter barrels for their ease of movement in and out of barricade ports and the option to add weight to the stock/chassis if necessary.

On the question of balance for NRL22-style matches, is it best to have the centre of gravity (CG) somewhere slightly ahead of the magwell/barricade stop?

If you can rest your rifle on the center of gravity on a sand bag on top of a 4x4 the way you would fire the rifle and walk away knowing it will not fall over, then you are in the right ball park.

You should be able to steer the rifle with no significant effort with mild left hand pressure on the top of the objective bell of the scope. Not to balance the rifle, but to retain the point of aim while you pull the trigger. In other words, the center of gravity is directly under the objective bell of the scope.

Weight is your friend as it will contribute to compressing the filler in your sand bag and reduce wobble.

Your shoulder is just barely there just to stop the rifle from falling over under recoil.

Trading off a short barrel and consciously degrading the effectiveness of the above in the interest of micro seconds is a recipe for dropping points.

I'd rather make 8 shots and 8 hits and time out over taking 12 shots and making 6 hits because of wobble. Not that I time out in CRPS very often.

And one more thing... In CRPS matches, you have 120 seconds for a stage as opposed to 90 seconds in center fire.

So you are you guys saying you need the short barrel micro second speed advantage and an extra 30 seconds for your 22 but you don't need it for your center fire with 30 seconds less?

 

[scourge18a]

As per this discussion:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ust-zero-now-expanded-to-other-areas.6990027/

Dthomas3523
"Recoil management. .22 makes you lazy and you get extremely accustomed to free recoil..... you’re going to find yourself struggling with spotting your shots if you’ve gotten into the .22 free recoil habit. I still fight with this if I practice too much with my vudoo or shoot a few .22 matches in a row. I have now moved to training with centerfire mostly for this reason. .22 is great to teach people on and practice fundamentals starting out. But if you aren’t careful, you’ll develop a free recoil habit.

You want free recoil to be a tool and a choice, not a habit and a crutch."

I think its important to learn to manage those situations where you cannot always have a stable position. With 22LR it doesn't really matter as there isn't really any recoil but if you are using rimfire as practice for centerfire then you should continue to practice the fundamentals of marksmanship including recoil management. Relying solely on a heavy rifle and a bag seems a bit lazy to me and could leave you in a pickle if the stage or a real life situation dictates you do something different.
I am of the opinion that balance > weight especially with 22LR where recoil is non existent. A 22 rifle could be 3 lbs (Savage lil Rascal) and you can still spot your shots.

Just another perspective as there are many and it may depend on your equipment or your ability.

 

[Mystic Precision]

For rimfire PRS like CRPS, both rifle setups have their place cause the courses of fire dictate different set ups.

My solution is removable weights.... set up the rifle in the naked state for unsupported positional shooting... then ballast the crap out of it for barricades.

Bring a couple of wrenches and do the 'pit change' as necessary.

wrt to barrel length in the rimfire PRS game, 20" works for me. For the rimfire ELR, mine was 22" and I don't see any benefit to longer in a rimfire as we know ammo today.

wrt to recoil management, I feel rimfire is far more demanding as it is very sensitive to varying following through.

YMMV

Jerry

 

[Maple57]

If we think about recoil as it occurs in various types of stages...

I would agree that you can get away with getting behind the rifle more in certain more stable typically two points of contact positions. But when the stage forces you to a single point of contact position where balance matters, the less you get involved in positioning the rifle the cleaner you will make the shot, even if you sacrifice a certain amount of shot calling. Its more important to break the shot clean than to call the impact clean with a big wobble area.

That said, there is a clear trend toward ever smaller center fire rounds for PRS to reduce recoil and assist with calling shots. With this reduced recoil comes a reduced need for the shooter to over power the rifle. As I said earlier, the shoulder is behind the gun to accept recoil, but not necessarily driving it. Muzzle breaks are also being improved to help minimize recoil and ensure there is no muzzle jump.

Lets not confuse rim fire with center fire. There is no requirement to use the exact same technique for both guns.

As for recoil management, lots of guys run on about it as though they can somehow use their often powerful egos to counteract the effects of physics. Some guys simply practice with a 308 so they get used to extra recoil, then compete with a 6 mm. There's no doubt about it, the more you shoot, the more you will learn how the gun feels, reacts and tracks under recoil

 

[markt]

Right now, my rifle's CG is under the magwell and it rests nicely on a barricade with a bag underneath it. Trying to balance it under the scope's objective bell would be impossible given I've put a giant scope (Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56) on a small-ish rifle (Dlask TUF-22) with a short light barrel.

My focus is on NRL22/ORPS-style rimfire shooting so want to get the best balance/setup for that task. I've no intent on playing with centrefire given the fun/$ ratio being so awesome with rimfire.

 

[Mystic Precision]

markt, from your location, it sounds like you are likely to shoot more matches in BC vs ON... ????

In BC, I have yet to see a 100yds match organised. We shoot LR rimfire PRS out to 450yds. BCPRL, KTSA, CRPS have been the event organisers. Even Mission, when they were going, were out to 300yds.

The balance you suggest will work well for unsupported shooting for sure but there are simple ways to add forward ballast so you can have a more front heavy set up. With some of the courses of fire requiring mag swaps, running a factory mag will slow you down.

If I can help with your set up, pm or email.

Good luck.

Jerry

 

[markt]

Thanks, Jerry.

A friend bought some of the ORPS steel and we are learning some positional shooting techniques, evaluating some rifles/setups and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Nothing formal but we're having fun learning.

 

[JP23]

Tenda had a 30% off sale back then... The MTR with match chamber was a no brainer over the other models they had in stock. Could have went with a 455 for cheaper but the trigger system on the 457 was also a deciding factor. I ended up upgrading faster than I had expected. If I could do it again with the same upgrades and this $460 Synthetic model was available at the time I would have gone that route with out a doubt.

Did you buy your MTR for sub $600 plus tax? I wonder how much of a difference the match chamber on the MTR has compared to the regular chamber - any experience with both?

 

[Mystic Precision]

Thanks, Jerry.

A friend bought some of the ORPS steel and we are learning some positional shooting techniques, evaluating some rifles/setups and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Nothing formal but we're having fun learning.

That is fantastic... have fun. And nothing is better then real world experience to help you choose what you like. Dont be shy to try various stock set ups. Depending on the positions, the set up will change. The key is finding the best compromise for you.

We use a couple of combos depending on the match and conditions. If you need some help, give me a shout.

Jerry

 

[markt]

My friend jumped in with both feet and bought a Ruger RPR and a CZ 457 Synthetic. I think his plan is to test them both and determine a winner. I'm going along for the ride and am curious to see myself which one works best in stock form with CCI SV.

 

[Maple57]

My friend jumped in with both feet and bought a Ruger RPR and a CZ 457 Synthetic. I think his plan is to test them both and determine a winner. I'm going along for the ride and am curious to see myself which one works best in stock form with CCI SV.

I can see in my crystal ball that he will be making a choice in his near future between a new stock for the CZ or a new barrel for the RPR.

Either way, he is not done spending money to get all he wants in one rifle.

He will be selling one to pay for the upgrades for the other as he will be totally satisfied with neither.

 

[adamg]

I can see in my crystal ball that he will be making a choice in his near future between a new stock for the CZ or a new barrel for the RPR.

Either way, he is not done spending money to get all he wants in one rifle.

He will be selling one to pay for the upgrades for the other as he will be totally satisfied with neither.

My experience with an aftermarket barrel in the RPR is that there was no improvement in accuracy and it incurred big pain in extraction and bolt close force.

 

[emerson]

I can see in my crystal ball that he will be making a choice in his near future between a new stock for the CZ or a new barrel for the RPR.

Either way, he is not done spending money to get all he wants in one rifle.

He will be selling one to pay for the upgrades for the other as he will be totally satisfied with neither.

I appreciate this conclusion coming from someone with some experience. I’m looking at upgrading to an open class rimfire and having the same challenge. Defending cost order: Voodoo, Anschutz 1710, or Tikka/CZ/RPR with barrel/trigger/chassis upgrade depending on which I start with. My Savage needs trigger, chassis, extractor problem, and barrel and then STILL a savage.

 

[emerson]

My experience with an aftermarket barrel in the RPR is that there was no improvement in accuracy and it incurred big pain in extraction and bolt close force.

Is that systemic to the rifle, or just that barrel manufacturer?

 

[emerson]

I’m tempted to grab a cheap chassis and an S&B for $4K to throw on my Savage. The courses of fire seem to require speedier precision turret adjustments rather than super accurate rifles. Sound positional skills might be the “sweat equity” that moves cheap people like me up the list, eh?

 

[rmsg0040]

Last weekend I had the RPR out, a member at the club works for one of the LGS and was shooting his Mark II's. I let him try my RPR, he didn't like it, his comment of: just because you put precision in the name doesn't make it so. When you look at the 50 yard challenge, (5) 5 shots groups at 50 yards/metres, you don't see any ruger precision rimfire on the list.

I am probably going to end up with a 455 or 457 at some point and run a side by side comparison. Whoever wins, the other gets sold. In the mean time, more practice.