This is a thread about IDPA rules. If you aren't a member of IDPA, it would make sense that you don't care about IDPA rules, and thus that you wouldn't care about a YouTube video openly flouting IDPA rules; that would make sense. What doesn't make sense is why a person who isn't a member of IDPA and who doesn't care about IDPA rules would choose to post, repeatedly, in a thread about IDPA rules; to me, that makes no sense.
Stock Service Pistol?
- Thread starter Wendell
- Start date
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Well is there even IDPA in Nova Scotia? Well you are publicly asking about the status of the hammer at start location. Doesn't take someone that shoots IDPA, to google the rules. and find out that he is in violation of the rules for SSP. So negating asking. If you shoot IDPA, you also know that nothing says you cannot use IWB holsters like you said in another thread. So like I said, why care what this person does?
People cheat all the time.
Sugarloaf Shooting Club
Margaree Valley, Nova Scotia
Wendell you appear to be correct. The shooter appears to be lowering the hammer to the half #### position yet at 445 he leaves it fully cocked.. Is the Stock1 magwell attached or part of the frame? If it is separately attached the gun, as opposed to just a slightly flared magwell the gun and shooter goes to ESP along with the half #### position of the hammer. Since this is a National Shoot I will pass the video on to HQ and they can either move the shooter to ESP or DQ him. I suspect the former will be the way they deal with this.
OkayShooter. I have limited experience observing IDPA shooters having only worked as a Chief Safety Officer at 14 Sanctioned Matches involving over 1,500 shooters so I cannot speak for all IDPA shooters. I know of only one deliberate attempt at cheating and it involved cheating the chronograph check. He was finally caught in 2017. He was and is known as "Minor Morgan" shooting CDP. He has in the past won several major matches by cheating others out of their right full win. He does not shoot IDPA anymore on the West Coast for certain. Some people do cheat and most are caught some are not.
If you think most people cheat and you cheat because you think most do please don't shoot IDPA we really don't want folks who cheat in our sport. If you are just making a general statement fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinion. I think you are wrong,,,just my opinion.
I posted the location of a registered IDPA club in Nova Scotia. I have no idea how active they are.
Take Care
Bob
If the Stocl1 has the same frame as my Tanfoglio the gun would not fit in the IDPA box with the mag extension Anthony is using.
Margaree Valley, Nova Scotia
Wendell you appear to be correct. The shooter appears to be lowering the hammer to the half #### position yet at 445 he leaves it fully cocked.. Is the Stock1 magwell attached or part of the frame? If it is separately attached the gun, as opposed to just a slightly flared magwell the gun and shooter goes to ESP along with the half #### position of the hammer. Since this is a National Shoot I will pass the video on to HQ and they can either move the shooter to ESP or DQ him. I suspect the former will be the way they deal with this.
OkayShooter. I have limited experience observing IDPA shooters having only worked as a Chief Safety Officer at 14 Sanctioned Matches involving over 1,500 shooters so I cannot speak for all IDPA shooters. I know of only one deliberate attempt at cheating and it involved cheating the chronograph check. He was finally caught in 2017. He was and is known as "Minor Morgan" shooting CDP. He has in the past won several major matches by cheating others out of their right full win. He does not shoot IDPA anymore on the West Coast for certain. Some people do cheat and most are caught some are not.
If you think most people cheat and you cheat because you think most do please don't shoot IDPA we really don't want folks who cheat in our sport. If you are just making a general statement fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinion. I think you are wrong,,,just my opinion.
I posted the location of a registered IDPA club in Nova Scotia. I have no idea how active they are.
Take Care
Bob
If the Stocl1 has the same frame as my Tanfoglio the gun would not fit in the IDPA box with the mag extension Anthony is using.
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That Anthony fella used the Stock 1 in the first IDPA Postal match this year - in SSP. He came in 118th place. I've seen firms selling the Stock 1 suggesting it's IDPA SSP legal, (I think that magwell is built into the frame), but yes, the mag bases look too long.
For my Shadow, I checked with our MD and the mag bases I bought just fit in the box by about 2mm. Pics can be deceiving, but his look very questionable.
About the general comment about following rules: I agree, effort should be made at the local level to be sure the rules are followed. There was a recent thread elsewhere about situations where people unknowingly broke rules, then go to some big event and get DQ'ed or bumped to higher divisions because things weren't corrected at the local matches. Ignoring rules doesn't help people.
For my Shadow, I checked with our MD and the mag bases I bought just fit in the box by about 2mm. Pics can be deceiving, but his look very questionable.
About the general comment about following rules: I agree, effort should be made at the local level to be sure the rules are followed. There was a recent thread elsewhere about situations where people unknowingly broke rules, then go to some big event and get DQ'ed or bumped to higher divisions because things weren't corrected at the local matches. Ignoring rules doesn't help people.
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I questioned Antony on youtube. Here is his reply:
" Thanks for the comment, You are correct about the starting point. This is something I do for safety at my local matches and have put in a official request of rule change to IDPA. The reason being if you lower the hammer all the way with a NON decock gun, you MUST hold down the trigger, this then over rides the firing pin block. The other CZ type guns that have a decocker lower to the half ####, so there is no performance advantage. If I wanted to shoot ESP I would just go cocked and locked. When I do shoot major matches I do lower it all the way under protest of safety."
Personally I think his explanation is weak in the extreme. On each stage he places his finger between the hammer and frame indicating he is lowering the hammer yet in reality he is not as evidenced in the video. There is nothing unsafe about lowering the hammer on a DA/SA pistol. It happens thousands of times both in IDPA and in IPSC every week-end.
Take Care
Bob
" Thanks for the comment, You are correct about the starting point. This is something I do for safety at my local matches and have put in a official request of rule change to IDPA. The reason being if you lower the hammer all the way with a NON decock gun, you MUST hold down the trigger, this then over rides the firing pin block. The other CZ type guns that have a decocker lower to the half ####, so there is no performance advantage. If I wanted to shoot ESP I would just go cocked and locked. When I do shoot major matches I do lower it all the way under protest of safety."
Personally I think his explanation is weak in the extreme. On each stage he places his finger between the hammer and frame indicating he is lowering the hammer yet in reality he is not as evidenced in the video. There is nothing unsafe about lowering the hammer on a DA/SA pistol. It happens thousands of times both in IDPA and in IPSC every week-end.
Take Care
Bob
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Well that club is on the island, and I'm not even sure if it still open. I cannot find anything on that shooting club. I don't think there has been any IDPA clubs on the mainland. If there was, my father and I would shot that, over IPSC.
I said people cheat ( push the rules ) all the time. I didn't say most people cheat. Doesn't matter if it's PPC, IPSC, IDPA ETC.
Bob, I saw your comments on the youtube comment section.
He violated the rules by starting in an incorrect hammer position, so you're saying he should be bumped to ESP. So what happens then, because the hammer wasn't fully down, but the safety wasn't applied. Is that a rules violation in ESP? Or, (most likely), will that only apply if the gun is in SA? (fwiw, my Shadow is in DA at half-####)
I'm feeling too lazy to look up the rules, lol!
I think in his case, since he's happily flouting the rules because he thinks his way is safer, then he gets to have zero score at his matches, or big penalties, or get kicked out. If he wants to protest while participating at matches, then he can follow the rules while waiting for a ruling from HQ.
He violated the rules by starting in an incorrect hammer position, so you're saying he should be bumped to ESP. So what happens then, because the hammer wasn't fully down, but the safety wasn't applied. Is that a rules violation in ESP? Or, (most likely), will that only apply if the gun is in SA? (fwiw, my Shadow is in DA at half-####)
I'm feeling too lazy to look up the rules, lol!
I think in his case, since he's happily flouting the rules because he thinks his way is safer, then he gets to have zero score at his matches, or big penalties, or get kicked out. If he wants to protest while participating at matches, then he can follow the rules while waiting for a ruling from HQ.
jimbo145- We both know that under the rules video evidence may not be used to apply penalties. That said, had I been at the match as the MD, assuming all we see is correct.
1. An equipment check would have not allowed him in the match using the mags we see in the video assuming the Stock1 has the same frame as my Tanfoglio "L" model and I think it does. Lets just say he agrees to use mags without the extension. The check takes place ahead of the first stage so no foul no penalty.
2, If he was only dropping the hammer to half #### on purpose, an argument can be made to DQ him for deliberately doing so to gain a somewhat lighter and shorter first shot trigger pull. Kind of tough to go with a DQ but certainly a 20 second penalty can be justified which effectively takes him out of the trophy table in a five stage match.
3. With the suggestion the magwell is attached to the frame, and we have applied a penalty for starting in the half #### position I think it would be fair to allow his scores to stand with the added penalty but place him in ESP where he belongs.
His claim he made in writing, that he was lowering the hammer to the half #### position because it was safer than lowering the hammer fully down, which he acknowledged he was doing, is completely bogus. His comment he has written HQ asking them to amend this basic rule in IDPA SSP Division and which is an accepted practice in the other major International action shooting sport is nice. HQ is not going to change this basic Division rule for him. He hasn't got an answer from HQ and likely won't anytime soon. We are assuming he indeed he has written the letter. I suspect he will continue to play his "I am doing this because I think it is safer" nonsense at his club. If he goes to the Texas State match or the US Nationals he will not get a sympathetic hearing.
There you go. That is how I might go with what we see in the video. PLease rember, it wasn't my call. This was a National Postal shoot approved by HQ BUT being run by a local club. I suspect like most club shoots they don't do equipment checks often and more than likely the SO's really are never concerned about the equipment or the Division the shooters are in. They for the most part, rely on the honesty and integrity of our shooters. My experience with clubs across Canada and with three clubs in the US North West leads me to believe this reliance is justified. The folks I have met over the years I was involved as AC for Canada and as a CSO at the WA State Match are some of the finest men and women you could ever wish to meet. eg. I have been called back by a shooter to re-check my call on a Down Zero because the shooter felt it was a Down 1...and it was close but it was a Down 1. My error.
Lastly, I can say with some certainty that our local clubs do their best to play our sport by the rules as they know them. I am also sure honest mistakes will occur and do. That is just a reflection of life in general.
You Sir are a Master shooter who got there by playing by the rules. I know this. Had you got there by "playing by your rules" how shallow would the title be? Who would respect you? Well folks do respect your accomplishment and that is the reason why.
Take Care
Bob
ps While your gun ast half #### is in DA mode the hammer is not fully down which is a requirement for SSP for pistols that are DA/SA with a manual safety. The attached magwell, if it is attached to the frame takes him to ESP. He has already received a penalty of 20 secnnds for the half #### hammer position.
1. An equipment check would have not allowed him in the match using the mags we see in the video assuming the Stock1 has the same frame as my Tanfoglio "L" model and I think it does. Lets just say he agrees to use mags without the extension. The check takes place ahead of the first stage so no foul no penalty.
2, If he was only dropping the hammer to half #### on purpose, an argument can be made to DQ him for deliberately doing so to gain a somewhat lighter and shorter first shot trigger pull. Kind of tough to go with a DQ but certainly a 20 second penalty can be justified which effectively takes him out of the trophy table in a five stage match.
3. With the suggestion the magwell is attached to the frame, and we have applied a penalty for starting in the half #### position I think it would be fair to allow his scores to stand with the added penalty but place him in ESP where he belongs.
His claim he made in writing, that he was lowering the hammer to the half #### position because it was safer than lowering the hammer fully down, which he acknowledged he was doing, is completely bogus. His comment he has written HQ asking them to amend this basic rule in IDPA SSP Division and which is an accepted practice in the other major International action shooting sport is nice. HQ is not going to change this basic Division rule for him. He hasn't got an answer from HQ and likely won't anytime soon. We are assuming he indeed he has written the letter. I suspect he will continue to play his "I am doing this because I think it is safer" nonsense at his club. If he goes to the Texas State match or the US Nationals he will not get a sympathetic hearing.
There you go. That is how I might go with what we see in the video. PLease rember, it wasn't my call. This was a National Postal shoot approved by HQ BUT being run by a local club. I suspect like most club shoots they don't do equipment checks often and more than likely the SO's really are never concerned about the equipment or the Division the shooters are in. They for the most part, rely on the honesty and integrity of our shooters. My experience with clubs across Canada and with three clubs in the US North West leads me to believe this reliance is justified. The folks I have met over the years I was involved as AC for Canada and as a CSO at the WA State Match are some of the finest men and women you could ever wish to meet. eg. I have been called back by a shooter to re-check my call on a Down Zero because the shooter felt it was a Down 1...and it was close but it was a Down 1. My error.
Lastly, I can say with some certainty that our local clubs do their best to play our sport by the rules as they know them. I am also sure honest mistakes will occur and do. That is just a reflection of life in general.
You Sir are a Master shooter who got there by playing by the rules. I know this. Had you got there by "playing by your rules" how shallow would the title be? Who would respect you? Well folks do respect your accomplishment and that is the reason why.
Take Care
Bob
ps While your gun ast half #### is in DA mode the hammer is not fully down which is a requirement for SSP for pistols that are DA/SA with a manual safety. The attached magwell, if it is attached to the frame takes him to ESP. He has already received a penalty of 20 secnnds for the half #### hammer position.
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Bob. Yeah, I follow the rules. I'm funny that way. lol! I still don't get this fella. Even if he's super safety conscious, he should give the postal match the respect that an international match deserves - and play by the rules.
In the other org I play in, in the Production division, the hammer *must* be fully down if you have to lower the hammer manually, for guns like the Shadow. Willingly flouting that rule like this fella did would probably be grounds for a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct by not following the RO's instructions. If the situation isn't as severe, but is a case of the equipment not matching the division requirements, that will probably mean a bump to the "open" division, where you get to play against skilled shooters with $$$$ race guns.
My local IDPA club is filled with amazing people. The SOs are super friendly and if something comes up that they aren't familiar with, they are eager to learn. Good people, and I highly recommend people come try it out.
In the other org I play in, in the Production division, the hammer *must* be fully down if you have to lower the hammer manually, for guns like the Shadow. Willingly flouting that rule like this fella did would probably be grounds for a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct by not following the RO's instructions. If the situation isn't as severe, but is a case of the equipment not matching the division requirements, that will probably mean a bump to the "open" division, where you get to play against skilled shooters with $$$$ race guns.
My local IDPA club is filled with amazing people. The SOs are super friendly and if something comes up that they aren't familiar with, they are eager to learn. Good people, and I highly recommend people come try it out.
My (Monday-morning QB) technical criticisms aside, I do hope that 'Buliwyf' keeps shooting, and filming, and that he continues posting to YouTube; he is very skilled at it, and his well-shot and well-edited videos do help the sport.
Videos are also good for looking for areas to improve. He and I are both in the "senior" category, so I won't comment on his moving speed, but off the top of my head, he could improve his draw, transitions, raising his reload height, and keeping the gun up at the proper height as he enters a new shooting position. Those things should be on his short list of training areas. The video indicated he was playing with a new gun, so maybe that's part of why he had trouble with the steel on one stage.
fwiw, he admitted to making a mistake with the SSP division with your original post that started this thread. He misunderstood the rules and the ROs never corrected him, and he admits it was ultimately his own fault. We all screw up. Glad he owned it.
If you are going to put it out there best you know the rules of the sport. Tribal rules in various parts of the US are more the norm than one would expect. It has got better over the years and likely will continue to do so with the improved SO testing criteria. IDPA in the US is no where near as tightly controlled as IPSC/USPSA is in this regard. Some areas are very good, others not so much.
From my experience here in Canada the clubs and in particular the members, do their very best to play within the rules of the game and seek out answers when they are not sure.
Take Care
Bob
ps This guys performance in the Postal Shoot was a subject of some discussions. I have to say the rules governing the divisions are pretty clear.
I lol’ed at the ‘armchair SO’ pic too. The gun barely fit in the box, so you’d expect some people to wonder.
...and his grip sucks
and isn’t that a PE at 1:30-ish for not slicing the pie? He shot left, right, instead of right, left. I’ll admit I don’t know all the nuances of the rules.
Cool gun though.
...and his grip sucks
and isn’t that a PE at 1:30-ish for not slicing the pie? He shot left, right, instead of right, left. I’ll admit I don’t know all the nuances of the rules.Cool gun though.
I am not sure the gun he used would fit in the box with the mag extensions he was using. My Tanfoglio "L" model barely does with no magwell using flush mag bases. In any event his likely was not the worst example shot in the Postal Match. You can't expect the postal Match concept to be ignored by the more enterprising shooters south of the 49th.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
In August I ran into Murray Gardner and mentioned I shot the early 2020 postal match, (Murray was my IPSC BB instructor). He then expressed similar concerns about postal matches in general and how some people may be a little less than honest.
Murray is spot on. It seems a shiny trophy with US National Postal Shoot might mean more to some then it does me. I have thought more than once about hosting a Canadian IDPA Postal Match limited to Canadian clubs. Trophies would be 10 cent certificates. It probably would be the only way we could manage a National Championship. Our border could well be still closed next summer., given the situation in the US. Hint.
Take Care
Bob
