Bullets for 38 SW

Ganderite

Ganderite

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I like to shoot DRG cast lead bullets in my handguns. They don't make a 0.360" bullet for the 38 S&W.

They gave me a box of their 158 gr SWC bullets that had not been sized and lubed. They are about .360"

I tested them, lubed with Lee Alox alongside ammo loaded with the regular DRG bullets sized .358 for the 38SPl.

I assumed the 360 size bullets would do better. Not so.

The regular (undersized?) bullets shot very nice groups (4" at 25 yards) that were a bit smaller than the correct size bullets.

The ammo with the regular bullets was laoed a bit hot. I don't know if that is relevant or not. next time I will try mild, medium and hot loads withe the 358 DRG 158 gr bullet.

I shot the ammo in 2 different Smiths (a Victory and a M33) and also a military Webley. In each gun the smaller bullet did better.
 
I'm think the 158's may swell up to the bore from the pressure, but than again ,I may be full off it?????????????
Back in the stone age I shot a lot of HB wadcutters and they worked in anything, 38sw, 38 sp.
 
I have used the hollow base 148s and they were very accurate.

If I wanted to make match ammo, that is what I would use.

This was an el cheapo sh!tz and giggles test. I assumed the 38Spl bullets would not work and thought they would show how much better my .360" bullets are.

This is why we experiment.
 
In my case I have a S&W Victory in 38 S&W and a S&W 19 in 357 which I shoot predominantly 38 SPC in. When reloading for both I use 158gr plated bullets from Campro or Berry's. In both cases I find they shoot well in the Victory regardless that the bullets are a bit undersize. I've been told that the Victory barrels are not really .360 but .357 . Who knows. It works though. Also had luck with cast .357 and powder coated cast in .357 .

Cheers
Moe
 
I wonder if perchance the sizing process gives you a truer bullet than you have straight out of the casting process; that could have something to do with what flies straighter.

Different lube could be a thing too. That and larger bullets could mean more pressure spike before it gets properly moving.
 
For the 38 S&W I would think you would want the softest bullets you can cast. I have used pure lead bullets in the 38 S&W and light loads in the 38spl with good results and no leading. It would not surprise me to learn the Smiths were .357. It was war time production and the need was great and time short. I would expect the earlier production would simply use 38spl barrels. The soft lead 386 lead bullets would just swage down and provide a tighter seal. I never did measure the barrel of the one I had.

For the most part, though I just use clip on WW alloy in 38spl/44 Colt/41LC & 38 S&W. The pressures are relatively low and you want the bullet to obuterate to seal the bore as best you can.

A really hard bullet will in some cases, lead up a barrel far faster than a soft bullet particularly if the bullet is undersized at all.

Take Care

Bob
 
There's so many different versions of 38 S&W that any recipe is hit and miss. The Victory revolvers and some others used smaller bores, in the .357" range. Some of the very early S&W revolvers had a .360 to .361 bore. The ww2 Enfield and Webleys i've checked are .361". And some of them could be larger due to wear and corrosion.

But - all of them had wider chamber dimensions than a 38spl.

The rule of thumb for cast bullet accuracy is to use the widest diameter bullet you can fit in the chamber, and fitting the bore size is almost secondary. In a soft lead bullet, being oversize by .002 - .003" is not overly concerning will still make lower peak pressure than a groove-sized jacketed bullet. Try pounding a cast and a jacketed bullet through a bore and you'll understand what I mean.

Undersize cast bullets cause more leading and fouling than oversize cast bullets. Cast bullets need to be larger than the bore but in low pressure antique revolvers they don't need to be much oversize to work. How they fit in the chamber seems to be more important than how they fit in the bore, believe it or not.

Undersized, HARD cast bullets can lead up a bore worse than anything else. If the bullet is undersize it allows the hot expanding gases to jet past it in the bore, and it will can melt the alloy and and even cut a groove in the bullet. The melted lead sticks to the bore. Compared to soft lead bullets, harder bullets have higher mechanical strength but they have a LOWER melting temperature, so if they are undersize they are more susceptible to melting/gas cutting than a softer alloy.
 
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^^ Thank you so much for this. very useful information.

I just returned from the rnage with my last test. I tried the DRG 357 bullets and the 360 Alox tumble lubed bullets with both 4.0 and 4.2 gr.

I tested in a pair of S&Ws (Victory and M33).

Both shot the 4.2 gr with the 158 DRG .357 bullet very well. BUT, the bullet was a bit loose in some cases and under recoil the bullets moved forward. One came right out of the case and jammed the gun.

The .360" bullets were tight. In one the 4.0 shot best and in the other 4.2 was better. So in the future I will load the 360" bullets with the 2 powder charges.

The milder load will be better for the break action Saturday Night Spl guns, too.
 
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juthunter you are absolutely right on about gas cutting leading to leading. The bullet is not in the barrel long enough for melting to occur but gas cutting on hard cast undersized bullets is certainly the culprit. To test the concept of lead melting in the bore take a propane torch and run it quickly over a lead bullet. You will be much slower than the time a bullet is in the bore. The bullet will have virtually no surface heat. Leave the torch on the bullet and after a few seconds it will begin to melt.

Take Care

Bob
 
Moe said:
... I've been told that the Victory barrels are not really .360 but .357 ....
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I rebarrelled a gunsmith-bubba'd Model 10 (with a silver-soldered fraction added on to make it Bill C-68 compliant) with a 5" .38 S&W barrel from Tradex on the advice of a CGN member here who said they were actually .357, and as far as I can measure from slugging the barrel this does seeem to be the case.
 
old303 said:
I wonder if perchance the sizing process gives you a truer bullet than you have straight out of the casting process; that could have something to do with what flies straighter.
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I wondered about this as well. Having cast bullets for at least 30 years I know that bullets dropped from the same mould can vary greatly in diameter depending on alloy, temperature of the melt, how hot the mould is, etc. Even though the sized and lubed bullets may be slightly undersized at least their diameters will be consistent which should give more consistent groups compared to unsized bullets that may vary up to 2-3 thou difference in diameter.
 
ted_dent said:
I wondered about this as well. Having cast bullets for at least 30 years I know that bullets dropped from the same mould can vary greatly in diameter depending on alloy, temperature of the melt, how hot the mould is, etc. Even though the sized and lubed bullets may be slightly undersized at least their diameters will be consistent which should give more consistent groups compared to unsized bullets that may vary up to 2-3 thou difference in diameter.
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Undersized bullets and low pressures are not going to be vary accurate in most instances and will almost certainly result in leading. An over sized bullet will swage down to the bore diameter or cylinder throat diameter which ever is the smallest. If the cylinder throat is smaller than the bore than you will get leading and poor accuracy no matter whether the bullet is sized correctly or dropped from the mold.

The whole idea of sizing lead bullets to at lest .001" larger than the bore is to ensure a tightly sealed bullet. The lube turns to a liquid as it travels the length of the barrel. Liquids as we know cannot be compressed which results, again in to a proper seal preventing gasses from getting ahead of the bullet and causing gas cutting.

Because of wide variations in barrels for the 9MM, mostly old European pistols I have settled on sizing all my 9MM bullets .357. They work wel, I don't experience leading or tumbling in any of my 9MM pistols.

Here is an article that covers most of the leading issues.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Fryxell is a well known individual throughout the casting community. He is a subject expert on this subject.

Take Care

Bob
 
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