Which SxS for Clay Games

Scar270

Scar270

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Ok I'm right now shooting stevens 311's. I can shoot quite well with them but the 12 gauge that sees most of the use just doesn't seem to hold up to the use, I've had to replace the top snap once and looks like I'm do for another one soon. There are a few other parts been replaced too. I love the gun but I'm looking for something that might hold up to the abuse better. I thought about a Gold Label, but I pretty much am stuck on double triggers.

So basically what SxS would I be looking at that would stand up to approx. 5000 birds a year. I know thats not alot of shooting for a real clay shooter, but it's about what I find time for with my other shooting and it still seems to be alot for many SxS's. Many field grade guns in general.

Price is always a concern, but don't let that limit your suggestions, if I thought I could buy a bombproof SxS I'd be willing to spend 3k plus, just might take saving for a while. My concern is if I drop the coin for a Merkel or something of the like will I get better reliability, or is shooting that much pretty much hard on any SxS? If so I'll stick with the 311's, at least I can fix them.

Thanks for the time to all who made it this far through my rambling.
 
Scar, for what it's worth my hunting partner has had similar problems with the Stevens design, and he doesn't shoot 5000 rounds per year out of it. Hal M. Hare manages to break Winchester model 21s, but he shoots a little more than you do.

I believe that many SxS's are robust. Still, 5K is a good bit of shooting and I don't think a Birmingham boxlock (or any light game gun) would be the best choice. The old American duck guns would work well, but finding a good one and keeping it properly maintained would be expensive.

I think something like a Beretta 470 would handle the load. They were available with double triggers, but you might have to search to find one so equipped. A heavy Sauer is another possibility. Merkel and other fine European manufacturers can give you what you want, but the price can be well north of $3K.

Sharptail
 
In alignment with what already stated by Sharptail.....among some of the used ones I believe a Beretta 626 should also be able to handle that amount of shooting. I've a couple of those sxs with 3" chambers that I got off the Used Racks in VG condition, very well built although I have never shot that many clay with those guns. The only trouble is the ones I've come across are equipped with single triggers :)
 
The BSS guns are very sturdy but all except the sidelock seem to be single trigger guns. The Gold label is plenty tough but rather light for extended shooting and again is a single trigger gun.

Sharptail
 
Thanks for the help all. So a question about sidelock vs boxlock. Sounds like the boxlocks aren't as durable for high use guns? So even if going to a merkel a person would want to look at sidelocks instead of boxlocks? Thats actually opposite to my understanding if thats the case, so I'm just clarifying, I'm sure Sharptails knowledge on this far exceeds mine. I notice that merkels cheaper sxs's are boxlocks and possibly within a price range I could someday meet, but I'd rather wait longer if I need a sidelock for the durability, which would be too bad, I prefer the boxlocks.

Edit:

Just to add I would like to take whatever I shoot trap with all year hunting some too, if that makes a difference. Mostly ducks and geese. Using bismuth if steel is out of the question won't be a big concern.
 
Sharptail said:
The Gold label is plenty tough but rather light for extended shooting...

Sharptail
Click to expand...

What do you mean by 'light' Sharptail ? Duty wise. .?

I don't mean to steal your spotlight here Scar,
I just aquired a SxS myself and now I'm more
interested then ever to know more about them.
The gun I bought is a boxlock, from what I've been told,
what is a sidelock, do they look different ?
Thx. guys
 
Scar270 said:
Thanks for the help all. So a question about sidelock vs boxlock. Sounds like the boxlocks aren't as durable for high use guns? So even if going to a merkel a person would want to look at sidelocks instead of boxlocks? Thats actually opposite to my understanding if thats the case, so I'm just clarifying, I'm sure Sharptails knowledge on this far exceeds mine. I notice that merkels cheaper sxs's are boxlocks and possibly within a price range I could someday meet, but I'd rather wait longer if I need a sidelock for the durability, which would be too bad, I prefer the boxlocks.

Edit:

Just to add I would like to take whatever I shoot trap with all year hunting some too, if that makes a difference. Mostly ducks and geese. Using bismuth if steel is out of the question won't be a big concern.
Click to expand...

From a perspective of durability, in a quality sxs (or o/u for that matter) none i.e. boxlock or sidelock is superior than the other. I suppose a boxlock design would be somewhat ahead in terms of strict comparison :). Keep in view though that sxs shotguns aren't really designed for extensive range use. Ocassional clay shooting should be fine.

Also, just a thought, IMHO, a Baikal IZH-43 (or SPR220....same animal with double triggers) could also survive the 5000 rounds/yr clay shooting figure. The Russian guns, although low priced, are very well constructed mechanically......more function than form and will perform equally well for Wingshooting. Baikals also come with steel shot enabled screw-in chokes.
 
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I've pounded thousand of rounds through an old Beretta 409 (double trigger boxlock) as has a buddy through his ... no problems ... and they both serve double duty as a waterfowler (with Kent Impact Tungsten Matrix) and pheasant gun. Another buddy has used his J.P. Sauer for the same purpose.
I suspect a good AyA would also stand-up well.
 
I think the biggest advantage of a sidelock is that it is easier to work on the lockwork than the boxlock. You can easily remove the locks and clean/oil them occasionally and were a sear to wear or break, much easier to get at and replace or adjust.
Why not buy a secondhand vulcan grade Parker shotgun as a durable gun. Extremely well made and you could pick one up for under $1000 with a bit of luck ,in a gun show. Only criticism would be they and most US guns are heavier than British ones.

cheers mooncoon
 
I've gone through a similar decision process and settled on a Merkel. (I think ;)) It is a good quality, strong action (after all, its used as a platform for their double rifles) and has an english stock and double triggers.

Choke selection is also something to consider. Since I plan on using this for targets and fair weather hunting, I'm choosing an IC and Mod combination. Briley will also install thin wall, steel compatible tubes on Merkels should they become more important to you in the future.

Great topic BTW - I've really come to appreciate and enjoy my SxS shotguns over my O/Us as of late.
 
sxs

Hi there, i currently shoot around 10,000 targets a year and use a cz redhead deluxe.Cz also makes a nice sxs called a Ringneck.These are very stout well put together shotguns for around $1000 dollars.They are made in turkey and have very fine turkish walnut stocks.


www.cz-usa.com
 
WithoutWarning said:
What do you mean by 'light' Sharptail ? Duty wise. .?

I don't mean to steal your spotlight here Scar,
I just aquired a SxS myself and now I'm more
interested then ever to know more about them.
The gun I bought is a boxlock, from what I've been told,
what is a sidelock, do they look different ?
Thx. guys
Click to expand...

Sharptail snuck out for one last day of sharptail hunting (go figure) before the season closes, so I'll presume to answer for him. I suspect he meant weight wise, not duty wise. Among other factors, felt recoil is influenced by the amount of energy released as well as the mass that is available to absorb it. Felt recoil will be greater (all else being equal) when the shotgun is lighter. In the field, shots aren't usually as frequent as is most often the case at the range, so the weight of the gun is less of an issue for hunting, etc. Also, the balance of the gun is usually set forward more so in a clays model compared to a field model because at the range the ideal is a smooth swing, whereas in the field the emphasis is on a quick mount and target acquisition.

When contemplating one model to do both jobs, a compromise is in order so that it will be better suited to both disciplines as opposed to a model optimised for just one purpose.

With respect to your question about box lock and sides locks, this is a subject about which entire volumes (plural) have been written. The basic difference is that box locks are designed with an essentially square channel frame. The lock works are mounted to the inside of this box, the butt stock to one end and the rest of the frame to the other end (fences, water table, etc.). Usually inletting of the butt stock involves carving out the insides of the wrist of the buttstock to make room for trigger plates and so on.

With side locks, the lock works are attached to "side plates" which are then fitted into the side of the rest of the receiver/butt stock. One way of looking at it is that the locks are attached to the plate with is, in turn, attached to the side of the frame instead of being located inside and attached directly to the frame. These designs are the opposite as far as the inletting at the wrist - here the "core" is solid and the sides tend to be carved out to accommodate the sidelocks.

There are such a thing as false side locks, which use sideplates to look like side locks, when the lock works are actually attached to the frame behind them. There are also as many variations of each as there are gun makers, so there are exceptions to almost all the "rules".

Those in the know usually develop a preference for one over the other, but there is no clear cut winner. So much more remains to be said on the subject and, hopefully, Sharptail will add his thoughts when he gets back.

(EDIT: Sorry if the use of the words "side" and "plate" are confusing with the term "sideplates", but I couldn't think of any other way to describe the plate upon which the locks are mounted. "Sideplates" are the fakes. Although fakes may be too harsh, they can still be fine guns, just not technically real sidelocks.)
 
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sxs

Scar
You do not need to spend 3k just look for an Ithaca/SKB model 100,150 or 200 it will run you around a grand tops. It will take 5k/year for more than 10 years without a hiccup,they are boxlocks and have crome lined bbls and
3'' chambers. Skb makes exceptional guns and have been in the biz a long time don't think because they are japanese they are garbage remember Ithaca was also the first importer of Perazzi to North America. I bought a 150 12ga about 10 years ago and have shot everything through it to the tune of about 40,000 rounds and have never even touched it, I like it so much I bought 2 more in 20ga one with 25'' bbls and one with 28'' bbls. Regarding boxlock or sidelock strength if they are good quality guns there is no difference in terms of the action the strength issue is at the head of the stock where additional wood must be removed to inlet the locks on the sidelock leaving a very thin peice of wood between the locks and the upper and lower tangs. I have doubles with both action types on much much more expensive guns from England,US,Germany,Belgium,Japan and Ireland and if I had to pick only one (God forbid) to feed myself I think it would be the SKB (or maybe an A.H. Fox). Just my 2 Cents worth.
 
Concur on the Ithaca/SKB.....last year, I reluctantly traded my 200E Deluxe Model that I had acquired in Exc+ (and unfired) condition ....my only gripe that it had a full Beavertail fore end that I found uneasy to "wrap" my hand around.

Solid finish and workmanship, nevertheless.
 
Ahsan Ahmed said:
Concur on the Ithaca/SKB.....last year, I reluctantly traded my 200E Deluxe Model that I had acquired in Exc+ (and unfired) condition ....my only gripe that it had a full Beavertail fore end that I found uneasy to "wrap" my hand around.

Solid finish and workmanship, nevertheless.
Click to expand...
The SKB is all those things except Scar270 wants a double trigger and every SKB I've seen was single trigger only. :(

If I found a double trigger SKB I'd buy it. I don't know if they ever made one with two triggers.

I think Sharptail's suggestion of a used Sauer is a good one. They are very solid guns that would stand up to sustained shooting.
 
Couldn't agree more on the Sauer ... although most will find the "Germanic" style stock a bit of a handful for upland work. Restocked however ... now you've got something ! You should be able to find a good "Royal" in 12 for about $ 800 and a 20 for maybe $1000.
 
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