Weatherby Vanguard 'Sub Moa'
- Thread starter jennis
- Start date
Out of the 4 standard Vanguards, I have owned, all shot sub MOA. But the sub-moa comes with a much better stock and bedding. You will be paying for the stock, not the accuracy. So, its a personal choice as whether you think its work the extra bucks.
I wouldnt bother, if you're really a Weatherby guy and want a nice stock buy the Mark V. If you're looking for a decent shooter, the standard Vanguard easily shoots MOA (and actually provide a target for evidence unlike other companies). I just bought a 270 wsm Vanguard and it has one big hole where the 3 shots hit the target, I can't ever blame the rifle for a bad shot.
My Vanguard easily out shoots my Tikka T3 lite I bought and used last and the trigger is fine. If you want a rifle that shoots, that you're not going to get upset if it drops, scratches, dings ect..buy the Vanguard if you want a better, like the Weatherby name spend a few hundred more and get a Mark V.
Cheers!!
My Vanguard easily out shoots my Tikka T3 lite I bought and used last and the trigger is fine. If you want a rifle that shoots, that you're not going to get upset if it drops, scratches, dings ect..buy the Vanguard if you want a better, like the Weatherby name spend a few hundred more and get a Mark V.
Cheers!!
While I would be the first to agree that all Howa built rifles including the Vanguard tend to be fairly accurate,I am not foolish enough to believe that one single three shot group is proof of a guns accuracy.I have shot 1/2 groups with rifles that average no better than 1",and I have shot 1" groups with guns that average 1/2".In other words,you can't know if that single group was a fluke,or if it was representative of the gun and load.If they were to include at least three groups,you would have a much better idea of what kind of accuracy to expect from the gun.
Problem with your logic is that for accuracy testing, as much human element as can be removed, is. It's not like "T. Yamaoko" or whoever stamps the sheet is sitting at a bench with the rifle trying to shoot a good group...that would be testing the shooter instead of the gun...
Most rifles will not shoot identical groups every time regardless of whether they are fired by a human being,or by a machine.The gun will still shoot smaller than average groups,and larger than average groups.If you look at a single three shot group,you can't know whether it is an average group,or a larger or smaller than average group.Every now and then a gun will fire a fluke group that is much larger or much smaller than normal.I have fired sub 1/2" groups with several rifles that normally won't shoot sub 1",and in fact average closer to 1-1/2".I fired a .08" group which is my best group ever with my 300 ultramag,but I normally shoot very consistent 1/2" to 5/8" groups with that rifle.Judging any rifle by a single three shot group can be misleading.
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Notice how you say "now and then", implying it isnt a frequent occurance. A test target will give you an idea of its potential accuracy for the most part. The rifle is shot from a machine, no human error and loads are tested with premium ammo.
A huge difference in group size isn't frequent,but when thousands of rifles are tested,there will likely be several fluke groups.However it is quite common for group sizes to vary by enough that the rifle with a 1-1/4" test group,could actually be more accurate than one with a 1" test group.
And the rifles are generally tested with only one load,so the rifle with a larger test group may actually be more accurate if you test with other loads.
As far as "premium ammo goes" it is quite common for some rifles to be more accurate with cheaper ammo like core lokts or power points than with higher priced Federal premiums.
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My standard Vanguard (non-MOA) does group measurably tighter than the factory target with several loads. I'm assuming that they probably try a couple of different loads at the factory, and as soon as they find one that produces the 1 1/2" group required, they quit. Further experimentation with loads can probably group better with most guns.
On another note, the factory trigger on my Vanguard SUCKS. Adjusting it (as done by a qualified gusmith) disables the safety before improving the pull. On a couple of American sites there is considerable discussion regarding the Vanguard triggers. Some are very happy with theirs, others seem to have the identical problem that I'm experiencing. I don't know if the triggers are that inconsistent, or if it can be chalked up to varying expectations from various owners.
I like the gun well enough that I'll probably change the trigger rather than selling or trading the gun.
John
On another note, the factory trigger on my Vanguard SUCKS. Adjusting it (as done by a qualified gusmith) disables the safety before improving the pull. On a couple of American sites there is considerable discussion regarding the Vanguard triggers. Some are very happy with theirs, others seem to have the identical problem that I'm experiencing. I don't know if the triggers are that inconsistent, or if it can be chalked up to varying expectations from various owners.
I like the gun well enough that I'll probably change the trigger rather than selling or trading the gun.
John
Even with the human error due to you shooting the gun?
Yep, even with me shooting, handloads of course. Every once in a while I would pull a shot. But 90% of the time, I could get tighter groupings than the factory, with handloads.
I'm with Stubblejumper. If I have this straight, they take a factory barreled action and dump it in a stock. Shoot a group or two, and if it' shoot's under 3/4" or so, call it a "MOA", put it in a "better" stock and charge extra for it?
Statistically, that means nothing. A real stinker load and rifle can fluke a good group. There is less chance that a good rifle and load will shoot a bad group. But one 3-shot group means little. Who knows which barreled actions are actually the more accurate until they are properly bedded in a good stock?
FWIW, I own a stainless Vanguard 257 Wby. The cheap one. The factory target was around an inch. My handloads are around an inch. But I have a McMillan on the way for it. It will be bedded properly in it, and chances are it will shoot better than it does now. And the total bill will be about a grand. And I will have a MUCH better rifle than the MOA model.
Statistically, that means nothing. A real stinker load and rifle can fluke a good group. There is less chance that a good rifle and load will shoot a bad group. But one 3-shot group means little. Who knows which barreled actions are actually the more accurate until they are properly bedded in a good stock?
FWIW, I own a stainless Vanguard 257 Wby. The cheap one. The factory target was around an inch. My handloads are around an inch. But I have a McMillan on the way for it. It will be bedded properly in it, and chances are it will shoot better than it does now. And the total bill will be about a grand. And I will have a MUCH better rifle than the MOA model.
You argue that the test target was meaning less but according to you own statment your getting the same groups as the target. You didnt say I had a sub MOA test target and my groups are now 3"
The test target was a fairly accurate reading of your guns current shooting capabilities in its stock form. You may or may not get any better groups from putting a McMillan on it but thats beside the point.
