Ruger American Rimfire Long Range Target

[coleman1495]

As long as you're happy to have misinformation and defend it that will always remain your perogative. No better example of misinformation in this thread is the idea that some ammos shoot better at longer distances than at closer ones.

I agree with you 100% on this. Groups are not going to improve with distance.

Variables are greater at range. It becomes harder to notice accuracy differences between barrels. If someone’s 22lr barrel is a poir performer at 50 yards its easy to shed blame and say it needs to be tested at 300.

 

[TheWhole9Yards]

Variables are greater at range. It becomes harder to notice accuracy differences between barrels.

Agreed, but still a good comparator when selecting ammuntion. I think 200yards is the furthest I will shoot groups, even at that there needs to be the 50 and 100 yard data to back it up. I'd like to combine that with chronograph data to get the best picture.

This is about the extent of accuracy testing for this rifle, at this point I'm trying to determine whether I should be ordering a case of SK Rifle Match or Long Range Match. I think chrono data will be the deciding factor between the 2.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Agreed, but still a good comparator when selecting ammuntion. I think 200yards is the furthest I will shoot groups, even at that there needs to be the 50 and 100 yard data to back it up. I'd like to combine that with chronograph data to get the best picture.

This is about the extent of accuracy testing for this rifle, at this point I'm trying to determine whether I should be ordering a case of SK Rifle Match or Long Range Match. I think chrono data will be the deciding factor between the 2.

Extend the testing to 300yds... it will be VERY obvious which ammo your rifle prefers.

Jerry

 

[scuba52]

Are you familiar with geometry? How on earth can a .22LR ammo produce 1 MOA at 200 yards if it can't at 100?

I think what Jerry is recommending is that it can be hard to see the variation in some ammo at close range, the variations will show up at distance. Some ammo performs better farther out to me implies it holds its moa better and doesn’t spread out as far as most rimfire ammo. No the groups will not shrink, just not grow as fast. I have seen it and really think you should try it. The op seems to have a nice performing rifle and has done well with it. Hopefully ruger has produced some good rifles that will actually compete without spending more than their value improving.
To the op I would also push out to 300, and skip the lab radar, no offence to anyone who has one but I have never got any data for rimfire from one and have done better with quick manipulation of my numbers on my app for hits.

 

[grauhanen]

scuba52, I'll try to explain the problem one last time.

Yes, groups will expand as distance increases. When measured by MOA, groups will always get larger as distance increases. With .22LR it will be at a ratio that's greater than it will be for most centerfire ammo -- that is .22LR groups will expand more quickly than CF groups. And certainly no rimfire ammo does better (MOA-wise) further out than it does at shorter range.

At 100 yards .22LR ammo will reveal how well it shoots. In fact, serious BR shooters distinguish between nearly identical good lots at 50 yards. The key is to shoot enough groups to get reliable information. The same applies to longer distance shooting. Shooting only a few groups isn't statistically reliable enough to draw conclusions. This is the weakness with the examples given in post #79 where three groups were shot with each ammo at three different distances. If more groups were shot at each distance the results would be very different. Three groups shot with each ammo is not enough to draw conclusions because there's too much left to chance, random acts of either inaccuracy or accuracy.

As far as some ammos not increasing in group size as fast as others as distance increases, there is no physical force that would explain how that would happen. When the bullets get to the 100 yard point, there's no internal mechanism telling them to discontinue the trajectory that got them there and to do something different such as tightening up so as to diverge from one another more slowly. The bullets continue on the course that took them to 100 yards and beyond. They are what they are at 100 yards based on the path that took them there and continue their journey on that basis. Forces such as wind only serve to make that journey more inaccurate as it continues.

As much as shooters may wish to have a .22LR ammo whose accuracy doesn't deteriorate as fast as others, it doesn't exist. All .22LR ammo bullets can only obey the rules that got them to a certain point and they must continue obeying them further on. The rules don't change between one make of ammo and another.

 

[TheWhole9Yards]

To the op I would also push out to 300, and skip the lab radar, no offence to anyone who has one but I have never got any data for rimfire from one and have done better with quick manipulation of my numbers on my app for hits.

No offense taken. Unfortunately at this time of the year I don't have 300yards available to me. In terms of Labradar I'm interested in the SD and ES between the two varieties of SK to see if that will support or contradict the information gathered by shooting those groups. Perhaps I will run the test again with 5 groups each at 100/185 and leave the Lapua out.

 

[adamg]

The only info on LRM I have ever read that discusses what it actually is relative to other SK ammo, is that it is just SK RM that chrono'd in the top percentiles of production and gets repackaged as LRM. So I think in group size, BC, SD, ES, the only expectation I would have relative to SK RM is that the LRM is ~10fps faster.

 

[grauhanen]

The only info on LRM I have ever read that discusses what it actually is relative to other SK ammo, is that it is just SK RM that chrono'd in the top percentiles of production and gets repackaged as LRM. So I think in group size, BC, SD, ES, the only expectation I would have relative to SK RM is that the LRM is ~10fps faster.

SK produces two different types of round nose 40 grain ammo, those that are rated at 1073 fps (327 m/s) and those that are rated 1099 fps (335 m/s). For each production run of these ammos, the product is sorted into the constituent SK varieties. This is explained by director of marketing for SK in the USA, Geoff Esterline, whose words were reproduced in a gunsandammo.com article from August 2019. (The MV for SK Long Range Match is not accurately noted.) See h t t p s://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/cz-usa-model-457-22-lr/365081

“Each production run is sorted by quality, measured through accuracy and group size at 50 meters from their lot acceptance testing tunnel with a return-to-battery-style test fixture,” said Esterline. “The best-shooting 1,073-fps ammunition is packaged into SK Rifle Match. And it’s equivalent in the 1,106 fps variant is the new SK Long Range Match.

“These are the two best performers,” Esterline said. “From there, you work down. Second-best quality for 1,073 fps is SK Standard Plus, then Pistol Match and lastly Magazine. Second-best quality for 1,106 fps is Biathlon Sport, then Pistol Match Special.”

Readers should be aware that the factory-rated MV is only a guidepost. The MV of all .22LR ammo varies by individual round and by individual rifle. ES can easily be over 50 fps with SK ammo. An SK lot with good ES is 35 fps.

 

[scuba52]

No offense taken. Unfortunately at this time of the year I don't have 300yards available to me. In terms of Labradar I'm interested in the SD and ES between the two varieties of SK to see if that will support or contradict the information gathered by shooting those groups. Perhaps I will run the test again with 5 groups each at 100/185 and leave the Lapua out.

Looks like it is a nice little gun, enjoy

 

[scuba52]

scuba52, I'll try to explain the problem one last time.

Yes, groups will expand as distance increases. When measured by MOA, groups will always get larger as distance increases. With .22LR it will be at a ratio that's greater than it will be for most centerfire ammo -- that is .22LR groups will expand more quickly than CF groups. And certainly no rimfire ammo does better (MOA-wise) further out than it does at shorter range.

At 100 yards .22LR ammo will reveal how well it shoots. In fact, serious BR shooters distinguish between nearly identical good lots at 50 yards. The key is to shoot enough groups to get reliable information. The same applies to longer distance shooting. Shooting only a few groups isn't statistically reliable enough to draw conclusions. This is the weakness with the examples given in post #79 where three groups were shot with each ammo at three different distances. If more groups were shot at each distance the results would be very different. Three groups shot with each ammo is not enough to draw conclusions because there's too much left to chance, random acts of either inaccuracy or accuracy.

As far as some ammos not increasing in group size as fast as others as distance increases, there is no physical force that would explain how that would happen. When the bullets get to the 100 yard point, there's no internal mechanism telling them to discontinue the trajectory that got them there and to do something different such as tightening up so as to diverge from one another more slowly. The bullets continue on the course that took them to 100 yards and beyond. They are what they are at 100 yards based on the path that took them there and continue their journey on that basis. Forces such as wind only serve to make that journey more inaccurate as it continues.

As much as shooters may wish to have a .22LR ammo whose accuracy doesn't deteriorate as fast as others, it doesn't exist. All .22LR ammo bullets can only obey the rules that got them to a certain point and they must continue obeying them further on. The rules don't change between one make of ammo and another.

Have you personally tried this? I have repeatedly with many different kinds of ammo. No I don’t know why it is true so I am not going to have a physics discussion. I am sure you are very well read and have some really nice guns that shoot great, but if you haven’t shot 300-400 yards yourself how do you know. Shooting 50 yards for me is great for a zero but when you want consistent hits at distance sometimes that 50 yard ammo doesn’t make the trip the way you want.
If you wish to argue try it shoot some groups then let me know how you did, if you can explain then I’ll have the discussion.
Have a good day
Steve

 

[grauhanen]

Have you personally tried this? I have repeatedly with many different kinds of ammo. No I don’t know why it is true so I am not going to have a physics discussion. I am sure you are very well read and have some really nice guns that shoot great, but if you haven’t shot 300-400 yards yourself how do you know. Shooting 50 yards for me is great for a zero but when you want consistent hits at distance sometimes that 50 yard ammo doesn’t make the trip the way you want.
If you wish to argue try it shoot some groups then let me know how you did, if you can explain then I’ll have the discussion.
Have a good day
Steve

No doubt you're uncomfortable with what I've said because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

I won't argue with you or with what you wrote because it's without reason or explanation. Your observation that sometimes beyond 50 yards the "ammo doesn't make the trip the way you want" is arbitrary.

Whether or not I or anyone else shoots groups at whatever distance changes nothing. For the nonpartisan, it's a fact that if an ammo can't perform at 50 it can't perform beyond. If it can't perform at 100 it can't perform beyond. Rimfire ammo performance never improves with distance. The unfortunate impulse expressed by some in this thread seems to be putting the cart before the horse by suggesting some ammo performs better further out than it does closer in. It can't do that. It's a one-way road.

An explanation for inconsistent results at long distance will have much to do with ammo ES and wind as the main factors as well as ammo imperfections and the fact that it's difficult to execute shots perfectly. These factors are there at every distance. At long distances they are magnified. If results are poor at 300, the basis for that was there before the bullet got to 50 or 100 yards.

 

[Max Owner]

Unsubscribing as Grauhanen is sucking the life out of this thread.

 

[Zee705]

Unsubscribing as Grauhanen is sucking the life out of this thread.

Well said. Some people are pure cancer.

 

[scuba52]

No doubt you're uncomfortable with what I've said because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

I won't argue with you or with what you wrote because it's without reason or explanation. Your observation that sometimes beyond 50 yards the "ammo doesn't make the trip the way you want" is arbitrary.

Whether or not I or anyone else shoots groups at whatever distance changes nothing. For the nonpartisan, it's a fact that if an ammo can't perform at 50 it can't perform beyond. If it can't perform at 100 it can't perform beyond. Rimfire ammo performance never improves with distance. The unfortunate impulse expressed by some in this thread seems to be putting the cart before the horse by suggesting some ammo performs better further out than it does closer in. It can't do that. It's a one-way road.

An explanation for inconsistent results at long distance will have much to do with ammo ES and wind as the main factors as well as ammo imperfections and the fact that it's difficult to execute shots perfectly. These factors are there at every distance. At long distances they are magnified. If results are poor at 300, the basis for that was there before the bullet got to 50 or 100 yards.

Not uncomfortable at all, just tired of the same discussion repeatedly with someone who has never actually done it. Sorry to the original poster for your thread going to the same endless nonsense that all threads that don’t fit someone’s rimfire thoughts. I hope you are going to the next crps I’d like to take a peak at this gun

 

[grauhanen]

 

[scuba52]

Lol

 

[emerson]

Shoot your guns and ammo at the distances under discussion Glenn. It’s a great way to make your point. Post the procedure used and pics+group sizes to show these folks they are full of it. Words don’t seem to work. I’m certainly on the fence here. You know a great deal, but these other guys aren’t all clowns either. I think a shout off at 50, 150, and 300 yds/M would answer some questions for those of us without the resources to do it ourselves. I’ve got a budget building for a open class rimfire rifle and any sound shooting evidence goes into the decision.

 

[Longstud]

How can anyone not love this. Its frigin awesome. In one corner we have Stephen Hawking of the gun world(NOT KIDDING). In the other SUPER SCUBA52 whos done everything he says and ive seen and witnessed a bunch of it. The dude can shoot and plays on a real regular basis. Scuba cant explain how this happens but Ive had the same results with Center X and SK Long range match. The Center X beats it at shorter range but gets a big trimming at extended ranges. I had real eye opening results at 178 yds on a four inch gong that was freshly painted. Three other shooters to witness. 30 rounds produced a group we figured was 2 3/4 inch looking through my Razor scope. Believe it or not my names not Ripley. I understand people not believing if its not calcubile. These are much smarter individuals than I and I get theyre doubt. I dont understand how its possible but after all we are dealing with rimfire vudoo and Im not talkin the gun maker.

 

[scuba52]

Just remember Chris anything past 50 with a 22 is blasphemy and should never be done. If a gun can group at 200 yards it should be burned for vudoo (used that just for you hahaha).

 

[scuba52]

Shoot your guns and ammo at the distances under discussion Glenn. It’s a great way to make your point. Post the procedure used and pics+group sizes to show these folks they are full of it. Words don’t seem to work. I’m certainly on the fence here. You know a great deal, but these other guys aren’t all clowns either. I think a shout off at 50, 150, and 300 yds/M would answer some questions for those of us without the resources to do it ourselves. I’ve got a budget building for a open class rimfire rifle and any sound shooting evidence goes into the decision.

I volunteer to do the testing, if everyone would send me a couple boxes of their favourite rimfire ammo (please no cci as my ibi barrel hates it). But your good quality match ammo and I will do the testing for all of cgn lol