Project to buy new pistols for Canadian Forces is once again underway

Yeah, highly unlikely that they'd appear on the surplus market. We can hope, but I wouldn't hold your breath for them to show up. They'll likely join their FN-C1 brothers in a pool of molten metal.

I think the requirement to disassemble without a trigger pull is a good idea. Pistol training in the military is far too brief, and a lot of the people who carry them aren't trained enough with them. I'm not super concerned with combat arms troops doing an ND while disassembling, although I'm sure it'll happen (there's ALWAYS one of those guys in every unit). I'm more worried about the doctors, support trades and higher ranking officers who will carry them and not respect the pistol for what it is. Just because you're in the Army, it doesn't mean you're a "gun person" and treat your issued weapon with respect.
 
The MK1 Hi Power was a fantastic pistol for its day (1930-40s) especially compared to its contemporaries. The large magazine meant that it nearly doubled the capacity of similar military pistols then in service, and was a major improvement for armies that upgraded from revolvers.

However, it aged poorly after WW2 as pistol designs evolved and incorporated new features.
- The BHP's magazine safety was never very useful to begin with, and didn't do any favours for the trigger pull. Despite being an SA pistol, the BHP never really had a great trigger.
- The lack of beavertail meant that a lot of shooters experienced hammer bite.
- The Mk1 suffered from having a poor, shallow sight picture and the fact that the rear sights were part of the slide meant they couldn't be easily changed or upgraded. These were a product of the times, when pistols like the 1911 and Luger had small, shallow sights meant for one-handed shooting.
- The Mk1 BHP didn't have a drop safety, and the manual safety on the Mk1 is very small and difficult to manipulate. Carrying the pistol cocked and locked (condition 1) wasn't a great idea and most people trained to carry it loaded, but with the hammer down (condition 3), which is a very outdated way to carry a modern service pistol. The BHP MkIII is better at this since the sights are better and the safety is much improved, but still behind the curve.
- As 'wonder nines' became more common, the BHP's 13rd magazine became overshadowed by 15+ rd service pistols. Today, 17+ rds seems to be the standard.
- The BHP's magazine did not drop freely when ejected. This made sense for the time, as magazines were meant to be retained. However, this doesn't mesh well with current handgun training techniques that stress rapidly reloading the pistol. Virtually all modern handguns have drop free magazines today.
- Even the last version of the BHP, the MKIII, doesn't have an accessory rail, which is virtually a necessity on a modern service pistol these days. It is possible to add one, but it requires installation by a gunsmith.

On top of all this, the BHPs currently in use were made in wartime. The fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired, and any attempt to do a major overhaul on the surplus guns to 'bring them up to standard' would be a waste of time, and probably would cost far more than just buying Glocks or P320s off the shelf. I can understand the romantic appeal of the BHP - I've owned a few and I'll always like them. But as Larry Vickers put it, their time in the sun is behind us, and they have been overtaken by better designs.
 
It's hilarious reading pages of arguments over which brand of white bread tastes better lol
The real issue was never as big as WHAT handgun is better for the CAF as a whole, it's the way we have been training to use it since inception. Full stop.

The brownings in the system are ####ing toast. 100% agreed. But make no mistake about it, they can buy the best gun on the market regardless of which it is.
The PAM, drills and training will remain the same:

1. Hold pistol at arms length as far away from you as possible and also pointed down range, adopt a retarded unstable stance with no training and an improper grip.
2. Shoot 30 rounds at that paper blob.
3. Fail Test but get a pass anyway because it's cold out.
4. Do this once a year or mostly never.
5. Deploy and be combat ineffective and familiarize yourself with the ND charge procedure.
 
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Travis Bickle said:
It's hilarious reading pages of arguments over which brand of white bread tastes better lol
The real issue was never as big as WHAT handgun is better for the CAF as a whole, it's the way we have been training to use it since inception. Full stop.

The brownings in the system are ####ing toast. 100% agreed. But make no mistake about it, they can buy the best gun on the market regardless of which it is.
The PAM, drills and training will remain the same:

1. Hold pistol at arms length as far away from you as possible and also pointed down range, adopt a retarded unstable stance with no training and an improper grip.
2. Shoot 30 rounds at that paper blob.
3. Fail Test but get a pass anyway because it's cold out.
4. Do this once a year or mostly never.
5. Deploy and be combat ineffective and familiarize yourself with the ND charge procedure.
Click to expand...

Yup...

Sums it up nicely.

I vote a heavy duty steel frame gun that will put up with 50+ years of abuse... like a browning HP.
 
Travis Bickle said:
It's hilarious reading pages of arguments over which brand of white bread tastes better lol
The real issue was never as big as WHAT handgun is better for the CAF as a whole, it's the way we have been training to use it since inception. Full stop.

The brownings in the system are ####ing toast. 100% agreed. But make no mistake about it, they can buy the best gun on the market regardless of which it is.
The PAM, drills and training will remain the same:

1. Hold pistol at arms length as far away from you as possible and also pointed down range, adopt a retarded unstable stance with no training and an improper grip.
2. Shoot 30 rounds at that paper blob.
3. Fail Test but get a pass anyway because it's cold out.
4. Do this once a year or mostly never.
5. Deploy and be combat ineffective and familiarize yourself with the ND charge procedure.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately rifle marksmanship training has gone the same way. On basic training it is now a “familiarization shoot”. The shoot to live program is outdated, prone from 100 and 200 and a 400 yard rundown. With the Enfields and the C1s basic grouping skills were taught - not much good at Close quarters but when a hit from 600 Could be lethal , there was no need for close shooting.
 
Georgian Pistol said:
Unfortunately rifle marksmanship training has gone the same way. On basic training it is now a “familiarization shoot”. The shoot to live program is outdated, prone from 100 and 200 and a 400 yard rundown. With the Enfields and the C1s basic grouping skills were taught - not much good at Close quarters but when a hit from 600 Could be lethal , there was no need for close shooting.
Click to expand...

Agreed fully.
I went through some of the first people to be trained on the new c7/c8 drills in January.
Which are just the same drills CANSOF had been teaching for well over a decade which is where I first learned them. Anyways!

Finally some modern changes to 35 year old innefective low speed high drag weapon handling right?! No sarcasm. Was nice and suprising to see to be honest.

Then we go out to the range to do the live shoot with the "new" drills:

1. At 100 meters adopt the prone! With a 10 round magazine load! "DONT GET AHEAD OF ME!!!!!!! Keep the rifle at shoulder arms while walking down range..no! Actually point it down range and walk backwards and leave your mags at the shooting line...no actually cut your trigger fingers off just in case....no actually lets just go home, guns are scary!"

Lol same problem all over again. Adopt new drills and keep training for the same useless static ranges and never actually teach combat effective drills of any kind with real ammo..one step forward and 3 steps back.

Un ####ing real......
 
Travis Bickle said:
Agreed fully.
I went through some of the first people to be trained on the new c7/c8 drills in January.
Which are just the same drills CANSOF had been teaching for well over a decade which is where I first learned them. Anyways!

Finally some modern changes to 35 year old innefective low speed high drag weapon handling right?! No sarcasm. Was nice and suprising to see to be honest.

Then we go out to the range to do the live shoot with the "new" drills:

1. At 100 meters adopt the prone! With a 10 round magazine load! "DONT GET AHEAD OF ME!!!!!!! Keep the rifle at shoulder arms while walking down range..no! Actually point it down range and walk backwards and leave your mags at the shooting line...no actually cut your trigger fingers off just in case....no actually lets just go home, guns are scary!"

Lol same problem all over again. Adopt new drills and keep training for the same useless static ranges and never actually teach combat effective drills of any kind with real ammo..one step forward and 3 steps back.

Un ####ing real......
Click to expand...

The new manual was adopted with immediate effect and without any promulgation. It took the military more than two years to update all the QS and TPs, and MLPs in order to properly provide for the adoption of the new drills.

What has not yet been updated is the OSP. I sincerely hope someone at the Infantry School is working on that. A good update should include time standards for every single application on every PWT level. Individual skills training could be untimed, but any evaluation of performance MUST include a time standard. Accuracy without time constraints is for the Artillery.

Also, the PWT 1, 2 and 3, should be the exact same drills and applications, and the only thing that changes is tighter accuracy requirements with less time in the higher levels.
 
Cameron SS said:
The new manual was adopted with immediate effect and without any promulgation. It took the military more than two years to update all the QS and TPs, and MLPs in order to properly provide for the adoption of the new drills.

What has not yet been updated is the OSP. I sincerely hope someone at the Infantry School is working on that. A good update should include time standards for every single application on every PWT level. Individual skills training could be untimed, but any evaluation of performance MUST include a time standard. Accuracy without time constraints is for the Artillery.

Also, the PWT 1, 2 and 3, should be the exact same drills and applications, and the only thing that changes is tighter accuracy requirements with less time in the higher levels.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm waiting to see what comes out of it myself.
I was surprised enough to see a change in the original 1985 C7A1 PAM drills period. I wasn't really surprised to see we are still training with live ammo like an old british aristocracy civilian target shooting competition on the range at all lol

50 meter standing snap reaction to threat drills should be incorporated.
Along with proper stance, grip and instructing the fine motor skills to actually bring a weapon up from the low ready state (round chambered weapon on safe) to putting rounds down range.
Short loading mags to practice magazine changes on the fly while doing said applied shooting and finish an application.
Etc etc

This whole thing of loading magazines so that the rifle runs out of ammo at the pre planned time so everyone can put their scary weapons down or shoulder arms parade square style like they're scared of them is a ####ing joke and serves no purpose anywhere in a modern military.

The entire method in which weapons handling and actual effective training is taught in the CAF is flawed at its core.
From the first second you touch one in your career you're taught to fear it. To only touch it or manipulate it in any way when yelled at by some NCO behind you.
Your empty magazine drills are pre planned for convenience so you never have to do it real time while engaged in a shooting application.
From inception you're taught it's an object to dread and to only touch it/use it/look at it if some higher authority standing behind you yells out instructions.

We train our soldiers to hold a rifle and dislike it. Not to actually use them in any practical way or even in a way that they become confident in their ability to use one effectively.

That's my unpopular opinion. Maybe in 30 years we'll start training soldiers to use a weapon like a soldier with a weapon instead of like 8 year olds shooting pop cans with a 22 supervised by Grandpa for the first time .....
 
What you describe, and more, is currently thought at DP1 level for infantryman called "tac shoot" and is developed further once reaching the Batallions. Unfortunatly, experience may vary depending of the interest in firearms of your platoon NCOs.

Also we finally managed to get away from targets that fall after 2 hits.
 
DT741 said:
What you describe, and more, is currently thought at DP1 level for infantryman called "tac shoot" and is developed further once reaching the Batallions. Unfortunatly, experience may vary depending of the interest in firearms of your platoon NCOs.

Also we finally managed to get away from targets that fall after 2 hits.
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lol Seen.

It's good to know it's being applied albeit not standardized or mandatory and up to the random discretion of whoever is in charge that year though sadly.

The handgun training and drills are deplorable as well.
They are in drastic need of revising.

Do they teach modified (read actual/not useless) handgun drills and technique within Combat Arms circles at all as with the rifle described above? Or is focus still primarily on C7/C8 drills for "Tac Shoot"?
 
Travis Bickle said:
lol Seen.

It's good to know it's being applied albeit not standardized or mandatory and up to the random discretion of whoever is in charge that year though sadly.

The handgun training and drills are deplorable as well.
They are in drastic need of revising.

Do they teach modified (read actual/not useless) handgun drills and technique within Combat Arms circles at all as with the rifle described above? Or is focus still primarily on C7/C8 drills for "Tac Shoot"?
Click to expand...

When I got back from Afghan in 09 every unit was teaching gun drills as per the school of whoever just got back from the last roto. Under the auspices of gun fighter, there were ten different schools of thought. The new pam actually incorporated most of that knowledge, and while its not perfect, it is a pretty good 95% solution. But the important part is we now have a new modern standard that instructors everywhere can rely on. We just need the OSP doctrine to follow suit.

Handgun training is still very much the wild west. The only people still teaching the PAM are those who have never fired a shot in anger. What IS being taught depends entirely on the unit. With budget cuts ammo is getting pretty scarce, and most people have limited appetite for dry training if there isn't a range in their future.

For the guys who care, the state of our small arms training program is a national tragedy. For the pointy heads that don't care, all small arms training is a distraction from garrison life that is best left for R2HR training. You still get people all over the map.
 
I can only speak to my experience as a reserve infantry then armour officer, but the pistol training I received was very basic stick-to-the-pam kind of stuff. Pistol training during CAP at Gagetown was very rushed and practically no time was spent teaching modern grip, draw, recoil control, trigger control etc. As long as you could hit the target and meet the standard, they didn't really care how you held the pistol as long as you didn't drop it or hurt yourself. I saw some very shaky officers still get a pass.

Back at the unit, I almost never got to actually fire the pistol during annual quals. I was unusually lucky in that I got to attend CFSAC / CAFSAC twice and competed with the BHP. I got a crash course in some more modern techniques by some very helpful NCOs who had just trained for close protection. They had the P226, the Navy guys had the P225 and an Air Force team had BHPs with aftermarket Mec-Gar magazines. I had 6 pistols and 25 magazines in the team stores and by trial and error I ended up with 1 reliable pistol, one backup, and about 6 magazines I could rely on. The rest were constantly jamming with various feed and ejection / extraction problems. At one point in a match, the front sight on my 'good' pistol became un-staked and fell off.

After that experience, I became a lot more interested in getting better with my small arms handling. I got my PAL, got a civvy job as an RSO and instructor, and started competing in IPSC. I tried to pass on what I'd learned whenever the chance presented itself, which wasn't often.
 
Why not just issue whatever is kicking around on base to the procurement people , then send them on active theatre duty so they can evaluate the current pistols first hand and inquire of other members as to what might be better.
 
OkayShooter said:
You forget this is the CF.

Just go with Glocks. They are going to get beat up anyways, and not by use. But thrown in a milk crate, and let bounced around in a back of a truck.
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I have glocks and 320 s i prefer the 320, but I dont know that glocks are anymore rugged?
 
hank2 said:
I have glocks and 320 s i prefer the 320, but I dont know that glocks are anymore rugged?
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It is the CF, There wont be any thought, It will be whatever will be cheaper. 320 or Glock be on the list, they will buy S&W M&Ps

We should have got Humvees... But nope we got POS western star.. Millions spent on RG31s.. Where are they? Still overseas..

I did a tender for the CF, for roads and grounds. Tested 2 tractors. We chose the more $$$ because it was better built and heavier construction, since we maintained their equipment, we knew what they need. They ended up going with the cheaper tractor, with a sheet metal deck, vs the re-enforced metal one.
 
I hope no one is holding their breath for the new pistol. I wouldn't be surprised to the The HiPower serve at least another 10 years.
 
OkayShooter said:
My guess is they are going to find stock pile of new HPs, and put them in service.
Click to expand...

They already know where the stockpile is. A weapon tech I spoke to recently said there was enough to issue a new one to everyone in theaters right now... what’s an extra 10 years for pistols that should have been surplused 20 years ago lol
 
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