TT-33 in any pistol competition?

[Canuck44]

Sassybee just as a matter of interest how many IPSC/IDPA shoots have you participated in or watched. You have some pretty strong feelings on both sports. I am happy though you at least acknowledge both are fun and they are what they are and no less than they claim to be iet shooting sports.

Take Care

Bob

 

[euxx]

...And no, sorry, IPSC is not practical. The whole setup is not conducive to defensive use of a firearm. In fact, it has been so bastardized that some of the founders left and created IDPA. Which it too has turned into a game with nearly zero roots in defensive use of a firearm. Still, both are fun and regardless of which discipline you shoot the fundamentals are very important.

Last time I checked, the defensive practical use of firearms has serial legal consequences in Canada.

No modern firearm sports in sane mind in Canada (and in many other countries across the globe) want to associate themselves with training for defensive (or offensive) firearms use.

IPSC is a game and sport competition, promoting safe firearm use for target shooting. Thousands and thousands of people competing in these games don't care if it is "practical" or not. It is a challenging sport and IPSC competitors don't really care if some others can't accept the same challenge or want to start their own shooting sport.

 

[tiriaq]

Assuming that there were no steel target or backstop issues, I assume that a Tokarev owner could compete "for honours only"?

 

[Canuck44]

Last time I checked, the defensive practical use of firearms has serial legal consequences in Canada..

You should check again. There is no law that prevents you to protect you life with a firearm. Faced with a home invasion and a threat on your life there is nothing in law that would prevent you from using a firearm to protect your life. I can think of at least one case where a lady was found not guilty of attempted murder when she shot the arm off of an intruder who was holding her husband at knife point. I sat on the jury, The judge made it quite clear to us that if we found it reasonable that her husbands life was in peril we had to find her Not Guilty. We did, and she was.

Take Care
Bob

 

[Innavedaw]

Assuming that there were no steel target or backstop issues, I assume that a Tokarev owner could compete "for honours only"?

7.62x25 in a single action with no safety? No bueno for IPSC at least...regardless of steel/backstop issues.

I’ve used one in a CQB match for giggles, paired with an SKS...Lol...wasn’t much honour in it though - came in dead last.

 

[euxx]

You should check again. There is no law that prevents you to protect you life with a firearm. Faced with a home invasion and a threat on your life there is nothing in law that would prevent you from using a firearm to protect your life. I can think of at least one case where a lady was found not guilty of attempted murder when she shot the arm off of an intruder who was holding her husband at knife point. I sat on the jury, The judge made it quite clear to us that if we found it reasonable that her husbands life was in peril we had to find her Not Guilty. We did, and she was.

Can you recall how much was the legal cost for that lady's?

Most likely scenario. Police will come and confiscate all your firearms, suspend your license and put legal charges for assault with a deadly weapon. Will take time and money to get it all dropped and returned to you.

 

[Canuck44]

Can you recall how much was the legal cost for that lady's?

Most likely scenario. Police will come and confiscate all your firearms, suspend your license and put legal charges for assault with a deadly weapon. Will take time and money to get it all dropped and returned to you.

First die or go through any legal hurdles....your choice.

No we were not allowed to talk to the defendant during the trial and I had no interest in asking her afterwords. It was a case of a drug addict breaking into a drug dealers house. The BG was climbing up the stairs to the living quarters of the house with a Buck knife held at the throat of her husband. She ran into her bedroom and stuck the 12 gauge Mossberg shotgun under her husbands armpit, and pulled the trigger. She shot the BG's arm off just below the elbow. The BG ran out and passed out in the alley behind the house. That is where the paramedics found him slowly bleeding out, A doctor testified the BG would not have died of his wounds because the body would constrict the blood vessels to stop the flow of blood to save the body. She was charged with four counts the largest of which was attempted murder. The Judge told us Canadians have a right to be safe in their own home. Canadians also have a right to protect themselves and their family up to and including lethal force.

We found her Not Guilty on all four counts. Had we fouond otherwise I felt and feel the Judge would have declared a mistrial.

Your concern seems to be money or losing your firearms. Under the circumstances your choice ought to be do I wan to die or live.

As an aside consider the woman and her husband were known drug dealers. I believe to this day that had she been in any other circumstance ie wife of a tradesman, doctor etc with no involvement with illegal activity she would not have ever been charged.
Lastly, the BG was serving 2 years less a die for attempted robbery -you guessed it. Robbing the drug dealer. His record also was that he had been sentenced to two years less a day 10 times over the previous 10 years and at the time of the womans trial he was being driven in from Ft. Saskatchewan jail every day of the trial.

At the start of the trial the Defense Attorney told us we would see a side of life we likely had not seen before. He was right.

There you have it the whole story.

During the 1970's in Edmonton there were a series of robberies involving the kidnapping of Bank Manager's family. I On the advice of a Sargent in the Edmonton Police I kept my .357Mag loaded beside our bedside for most of that decade. There were other protocols we followed. I can tell you the Police were very professional and in the end caught those involved.

That is the real world.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Sassybee]

Sassybee just as a matter of interest how many IPSC/IDPA shoots have you participated in or watched. You have some pretty strong feelings on both sports. I am happy though you at least acknowledge both are fun and they are what they are and no less than they claim to be iet shooting sports.

Take Care

Bob

Shot 1 IPSC match, watched more than i can remember. Shot a handful of IDPA matches, was alright but had a similar gaming taste as IPSC. Shoot mostly 3 gun, 2 gun, steel challenge.

Can you recall how much was the legal cost for that lady's?

Most likely scenario. Police will come and confiscate all your firearms, suspend your license and put legal charges for assault with a deadly weapon. Will take time and money to get it all dropped and returned to you.

All fabrications of your own doing. Been a lot of self defense shootings in Canada. Unfortunately our socialist media doesn't air such stories as it doesn't fit their narrative. I know of 2 cases locally that never even made local gossip. Another case involved a known scumbag, who killed 1 intruder and left the other a vegetable. He was charged but the charges were dropped after the investigation.

It's sad that people value money more than their life or the lives of loved ones. Concerning yourself about the "what if" aftermath before surviving the event is pointless. You are also entitled to free counsel. If it's self defense it won't be hard to prove.

 

[Innavedaw]

Shot 1 IPSC match, watched more than i can remember. Shot a handful of IDPA matches, was alright but had a similar gaming taste as IPSC. Shoot mostly 3 gun, 2 gun, steel challenge.

LOL...like there’s no gaming in multi gun and steel challenge is the epitome of practical defensive training...Come on man...

 

[Wendell]

...steel challenge is the epitome of practical defensive training...Come on man...

I know. It doesn't make any sense to most people. But Steel and PPC are sufficiently different that I'm not afraid they'll create bad habits, whereas modern-day IPSC rewards those who stand right in a doorway and blast away.

 

[euxx]

First die or go through any legal hurdles....your choice.
...
Your concern seems to be money or losing your firearms. Under the circumstances your choice ought to be do I wan to die or live.
...

Where did I say that is my concern? I described what's likely to happen after you shoot someone. Your story has nothing that contradict it.

All fabrications of your own doing. Been a lot of self defense shootings in Canada. Unfortunately our socialist media doesn't air such stories as it doesn't fit their narrative. I know of 2 cases locally that never even made local gossip. Another case involved a known scumbag, who killed 1 intruder and left the other a vegetable. He was charged but the charges were dropped after the investigation.

It's sad that people value money more than their life or the lives of loved ones. Concerning yourself about the "what if" aftermath before surviving the event is pointless. You are also entitled to free counsel. If it's self defense it won't be hard to prove.

Which part is the fabrication? Are you telling me that after you used firearms to shoot someone they are going to be left in your possession?

Now. Tell me, what police investigation is going to conclude after they find out you have been participating in offensive firearm training or practice, using firearms you have legally obtained for the purpose of sport target shooting.

As for your delusions regarding me valuing life over money... Re-read what I posted. I wrote nothing about being guilty after using firearms for self defence.

 

[euxx]

I know. It doesn't make any sense to most people. But Steel and PPC are sufficiently different that I'm not afraid they'll create bad habits, whereas modern-day IPSC rewards those who stand right in a doorway and blast away.

I'd love to see you shooting steel challenge taking cover.

Besides, steel challenge has nothing to do with dynamic or practical shooting - it is all about muscle memory and repeating the same drill over and over again. In regards of the shooting mechanics and mental game it has more similarity with skeet or even bullseye.

And for PPC. Don't know what kind of single IPSC match you've shot or watched and where idea of standing in place came from. By the time a PPC shooter completes his 1st or 2nd shot, an IPSC master will be far gone after hitting multiple targets with the same accuracy level. And generally, a decent IPSC shooter will outperform most IDPA folks.

 

[Canuck44]

Where did I say that is my concern? I described what's likely to happen after you shoot someone. Your story has nothing that contradict it.



Which part is the fabrication? Are you telling me that after you used firearms to shoot someone they are going to be left in your possession?

Now. Tell me, what police investigation is going to conclude after they find out you have been participating in offensive firearm training or practice, using firearms you have legally obtained for the purpose of sport target shooting.

As for your delusions regarding me valuing life over money... Re-read what I posted. I wrote nothing about being guilty after using firearms for self defence.

You are letting your imagination run away with itself. The question was can you use a firearm to defend your life. That question assumes that your life is in great peril and will likely end if you do not do something. Do you really care what lays beyond your present circumstance.
Nothing else is a concern.

Here are your choices.

1. Attempt to defend yourself with anything else but a gun. You lose...you die. The End

2. You are about to be killed by a very big bad guy armed with a K Bar knife. You step back and put a 9MM through is forehead. He dies ...you live.

Both scenarios take place in your own home at 2 in the morning and the BG broke into your home. He is dead in your bedroom. The K Bar knife is in his hands.

None of what you describe will take place aside from the police investigation and their recommendation that no charges be laid.

Even IF your imagination proves accurate. Scenario 1 leaves you dead. Scenario 2 leaves you alive and able to fight another day.

I know the one I would pick. You do as you wish.

Take Care

Bob
BTW My story against.....nobody. i simply feared for my life.

 

[euxx]

Canuck44, my post was not about my choice, but what happens after.

 

[Canuck44]

Canuck44, my post was not about my choice, but what happens after.

I understand what you are saying but it is not necessary so. It is easy to assume the worse and there are always exceptions but one swallow does not make a spring. It is easy to assume the worse BUT from what I have witnessed over my experiences a good shoot is a good shoot. Where it gets hairy is when you hear of situations where it goes off the rails there is often more at play than just the shooting.

The only situation where I believe you are well within your rights to defend yourself with lethal force are situations where you are within the confines of your home. I am sure there may well be other situations that someone will describe that are equally within your rights as well. Within the confines of your home there simply is to much case law to suggest otherwise. In the situation I described earlier, I have no doubt that has the lady and her husband not been known drug dealers she would never have been charged. Hell in the pictures we saw there were pills strewn all down steps to the landing. Did we hear what really happened? I don't know. I will say though the Judge made it very clear we were to ignore the surroundings we saw and the evidence the individual were actively selling drugs out of their home. We were explained the Castle Principle and the fact that individuals have a right to feel secure in their own home. Forgive me if can't explain further the words the judge used but as I remember his instructions they were crystal clear uninvited guests in your home who pose a lethal threat to you and your family can be in grave peril. I do remember him saying if we were satisfied the charged or her husband were at risk we were to find the lady not guilty. That was the only issue in the case. Those were not his words but that is what he conveyed to us.

All the best

Bob

 

[tiriaq]

This has come a long ways from use of the Tokarev in any competitions.

 

[Freedom Ventures]

This has come a long ways from use of the Tokarev in any competitions.

I think it's the lockdowns. Cabin fever comes early this year.

Makes for good entertainment for the rest of us, though.

Personally standing by for "2 World Warz!!", "That'll get you killed in the streetz" and someone being called a nazi.

 

[euxx]

This has come a long ways from use of the Tokarev in any competitions.

It wasn't me who brought in defensive firearm use in the "Action Shooting Competitions" forum. Just saying...

 

[euxx]

I understand what you are saying but it is not necessary so...

Maybe, maybe not. And if defendant had have firearms license the decision and charges could have been different too. Police also will be doing their due diligence, as to collect evidence and make sure it is not tampered in any way.

Wasn't there a case few years ago when someone used (or presented) a firearm when dealing with an arsonist who been trying to put his house on fire, along with the story how that guy was handled by the police and how much did it cost him to get these charges dropped?

 

[Sassybee]

Where did I say that is my concern? I described what's likely to happen after you shoot someone. Your story has nothing that contradict it.



Which part is the fabrication? Are you telling me that after you used firearms to shoot someone they are going to be left in your possession?

Now. Tell me, what police investigation is going to conclude after they find out you have been participating in offensive firearm training or practice, using firearms you have legally obtained for the purpose of sport target shooting.

As for your delusions regarding me valuing life over money... Re-read what I posted. I wrote nothing about being guilty after using firearms for self defence.

The bold is what I think Canuck and I are getting at. You're attempting to illustrate the "scary" parts of self defense by highlighting the loss of property and/or money. Neither of which are more important than surviving the encounter. Of course your take might be different than that of Canuck and myself.

The delusional part was your fabricated story about going to jail, the legal costs, losing your property etc etc. Same goes for your claim that your involvement in competition, or even legitimate defensive firearms training will come back to haunt you. This sadly includes people's beliefs that modified firearms or hollow point ammo will result in a murder conviction. That has been 100% proven false. There are zero cases where any of the above made any difference. It was either a clean defensive shoot or not. The materials used have zero bearing on the situation. Namely the ability to prove whether or not your life or that of another was at risk of "grievous bodily harm, or death". That is the only factor that matters.

I'd love to see you shooting steel challenge taking cover.

Besides, steel challenge has nothing to do with dynamic or practical shooting - it is all about muscle memory and repeating the same drill over and over again. In regards of the shooting mechanics and mental game it has more similarity with skeet or even bullseye.

And for PPC. Don't know what kind of single IPSC match you've shot or watched and where idea of standing in place came from. By the time a PPC shooter completes his 1st or 2nd shot, an IPSC master will be far gone after hitting multiple targets with the same accuracy level. And generally, a decent IPSC shooter will outperform most IDPA folks.

Do you not need a firm grasp of marksmanship fundamentals to draw from the holster and hit the steel targets? Would marksmanship fundamentals not be practical in all shooting disciplines/scenarios??

Multi gun definitely has a large gaming element to it. It also(at least the matches I attend) involves proper use of cover, problem solving(target ID etc) and the use of multiple firearm types. Practical gear being the norm as well. The use of practical tactics is usually encouraged at multi gun, whereas in IPSC the tactics are entirely geared around the clock. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't very fitting to call themselves the International Practical Shooting Confederation when there is zero practical shooting involved.

Skeet definitely works the hand eye coordination. However it has little merit from a defensive standpoint as nearly zero threats come at you from the sky.

I never mentioned stationary shooting for IPSC. What I dislike are the silly rules about target types, number of targets being limited from one position, the very specific belts/holsters/guns that are largely impractical for any traditional/functional use. Another issue which you highlighted is the never ending pursuit for time. IPSC is all about time. Is there a time limit in a defensive shoot? Are police required to shoot a threat within a specific amount of time? Or is that time frame dictated by the situation? The timer is used in IPSC and most other shooting disciplines as a way of grading the shooters. A way to keep score. And keeping score is indicative of a game. The use of special equipment designed to improve your time during said game is impractical by design. equipment that is geared towards the gaming side cannot by default be geared towards the practical side simultaneously.

I know. It doesn't make any sense to most people. But Steel and PPC are sufficiently different that I'm not afraid they'll create bad habits, whereas modern-day IPSC rewards those who stand right in a doorway and blast away.

Precisely...