Why are Swedish M96/M38 rifles more accurate than G98/K98s in the same condition?

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i've enjoyed owning and using both Swedish & made M96/M38 rifles over the years as well as K98s.

I think there is a very well established concensus that M96 and M38 rifles are significantly more accurate than G98s and K98s of all calibres.

From what I have read, observed and experienced by myself M96/M38s typically achieve 2moa where as a K98s seem to hit around 4moa (which matches the standards set out by the German govt as covered by youtuber Bloke on the Range)

While we've all experienced outliers I believe my comments thus far remain fair.

I was wondering if any learned person could explain why this accuracy change exists?

Other Mauser variants such as the Brazilian mausers of non-98 vintage also seem to do very well.
 
I believe it may be inherent to the bullet and twist rates of the different cartridges. The long bullets in the Swede and fast twist are (what I was told) the main reasons that it's an accurate rifle.
 
Imo. . better QC, better materials.. and 6.5x55 is an accurate caliber .. 8mm is soso
.. the disc on side of swede tells of its condition
.. usually u can do better than 2 moa

im biased.. like the swede much much more
 
I've shot hundreds of both rifles in excellent condition and it's been my experience that the OP's presumption is just that.

When the rifles are fed ammunition they like, they both shoot every bit as well as the other.

Now, if you're going to compare a late war time 98, built under expedient controls to a Swede 96 type, that was always built to the best standards, then you may find the excellent examples will be bit more accurate. MAYBE. I've got a late war 45 swf, sporter, with original military barrel, that will easily keep RWS 10.4g (160gr) PSP hunting bullets easily into consistent 1.5moa groups, but it wears an old 4x Weaver Steelite. Also a pre war VZ24, with its Ramapant Lion crest intact and matching numbers that will easily shoot the same ammo into the same groups. It's still in full wood, as issued garb.

Both of these rifles will shoot even better with handloads.

I also have M1908 and M1935 Brazilian 98 type 98 Mausers, chambered in 7x57 that will shoot select handloads into sub moa groups, if the shooter does their part. I also have signed off targets to prove this.

One thing I have found, is that shooters tend to shoot the Swede 96 type rifles better because there is less felt recoil and they don't flinch. Over the last couple of years, I've noticed more shooters at the range with flinches than without. Mind you, shooting off the bench is almost as bad as shooting prone, when it comes to felt recoil.

Anyway, OP, with lots of experience under my belt, shooting milsurps, I've yet to find one in excellent condition, bedded as per spec, fed ammunition it likes that won't keep up with any other milsurp of similar design.

One milsurp, that doesn't get much mention for accuracy are the 8mm French M1886, 1892, 1916 type rifles. With good ammunition they will stand chin to chin with any of the Mauser types.

Even the later M1935/36 Max riles, with two piece stocks and rear locking lugs (that aren't supposed to be conducive to accuracy) chambered with their 7.5x54 rimless round, roughly the equivalent of the 308Win, are capable of excellent groups in the 1 moa range, when they're fed ammo that they like..

I could go on, with rifles like the Steyr built Kropatschek 1886, No1 and No4 Lee Enfields, 91 type Mosins. Springfield O3s etc.

The main reason the 96 type Swede rifles get such a good reputation for accuracy is that they are mostly found in excellent peace time manufacture, condition and then compared to rifles that have been dragged all over hell's half acre or poorly stored.

I personally don't believe those lovely Swede Mausers are any more accurate than any of their counterparts, in the same condition, with good ammunition and being shot by people that are comfortable shooting them, under similar conditions.
 
I haven't noticed the Swedes being more accurate than the 98's. I've gone through a fair share of German 98k's and I found them to be very accurate. With stock sights I had no problem shooting 1.5-2inch groups with handloads at 100 yards. Even my yugo m48 shoots 2inch groups. So I say if all things are equal, good barrels and good loads they will be on par.
 
The idea that one modern cartridge can be more accurate than another requires theoretical gymnastics that can only be proven under unrealistic conditions, the result of which would show an advantage that could not be exploited by anyone. Comparing 2 war time production milsurps is a comparison of rifles, not cartridges, and for many of these rifles, the accuracy bar was set pretty low at about 4 MOA. The 6.5X55 in a Mauser rifle is easier for many people to shoot well due to it's lower recoil, relative to the 8mm in a K-98k, but saying the 6.5X55 is a more accurate cartridge than any other service rifle cartridge of the time would be a tough sell. Chamber any of those cartridges in a modern target rifle, loaded with match ammunition and I bet it would end up being a measure of shooters, rather than a measure of cartridges or rifles.
 
. Of the rifles I have shot I would give a slight edge to the Swede. The run of the mill Swedish rifles generally are in better condition with better bores, maybe because they never saw combat use.
 
jethunter said:
. Of the rifles I have shot I would give a slight edge to the Swede. The run of the mill Swedish rifles generally are in better condition with better bores, maybe because they never saw combat use.
Click to expand...

Finnland and Norway both used them in combat, I believe, and maybe even Denmark?
 
bearhunter said:
Finnland and Norway both used them in combat, I believe, and maybe even Denmark?
Click to expand...
I "believe" Norway and Denmark had the Krag Jorgensen and M98k; Finland used Mosin Nagant as their official service rifles during that period.

None of them ever adopted the Swedish M96 / M94 to my knowledge.
 
Finnland for sure issued them in limited numbers. I don't know if they were gifted by Sweden or purchased. The Finns were desperate for firearms at one point. They even purchased a bunch of badly worn Mosins from Germany and Carcanos from the UK at one point.

I'm not sure about Norway or Denmark. I agree, they were never adopted as main battle rifles in any of these nations, although the Finns had enough of them to equip quite a large number of troops in the field.

I'll do some checking.

Model 1896 Swedish Mauser in Finnish service during WW II

Swedish volunteers by a destroyed Soviet tank in Finland during the Winter War. The soldier in the foreground carries a slung m/94 carbine.
In 1940, Finland bought 77,000 M1896 Mausers from Sweden in 6.5×55mm. They were mainly used by second line units.[12] Model 1896 rifles used by Finland in WW II can be recognized by a stamp with the letters SA (Suomen Armeija = Finnish Army) surrounded by a square with rounded corners. Most of the rifles were returned to Sweden after WW II but some remained in Finland.[13]

The Swedish Model 96 Mauser - Shooting Timeswww.shootingtimes.com › editorial › longgun_reviews...
By 1898 manufacture of both the Model 94 carbine and Model 96 rifle was ... In the post-World War II period, most Swedish Mausers had their sights modified. ... Quantities of Swedish Mausers were smuggled into Denmark in 1944 for use by

From Wikipedia

Users
Sweden
Finland[13]
Luxembourg[15]
Denmark[16]
Norway[17]
Gallery
 
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Wouldn't it because 6.5x55 has lower recoil than 8x57?

And thus someone can get more comfortable shooting, then getting hammered by it?
 
dgradinaru said:
I haven't noticed the Swedes being more accurate than the 98's. I've gone through a fair share of German 98k's and I found them to be very accurate. With stock sights I had no problem shooting 1.5-2inch groups with handloads at 100 yards. Even my yugo m48 shoots 2inch groups. So I say if all things are equal, good barrels and good loads they will be on par.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the keyword phrase is "With handloads" for the K98 where as a standard 96 seems to not need tailored ammo
 
bearhunter said:
Finnland for sure issued them in limited numbers. I don't know if they were gifted by Sweden or purchased. The Finns were desperate for firearms at one point. They even purchased a bunch of badly worn Mosins from Germany and Carcanos from the UK at one point.

I'm not sure about Norway or Denmark. I agree, they were never adopted as main battle rifles in any of these nations, although the Finns had enough of them to equip quite a large number of troops in the field.

I'll do some checking.

Model 1896 Swedish Mauser in Finnish service during WW II

Swedish volunteers by a destroyed Soviet tank in Finland during the Winter War. The soldier in the foreground carries a slung m/94 carbine.
In 1940, Finland bought 77,000 M1896 Mausers from Sweden in 6.5×55mm. They were mainly used by second line units.[12] Model 1896 rifles used by Finland in WW II can be recognized by a stamp with the letters SA (Suomen Armeija = Finnish Army) surrounded by a square with rounded corners. Most of the rifles were returned to Sweden after WW II but some remained in Finland.[13]
Click to expand...

I did say the "SWEDISH" rifles we get as milsurps never saw combat, as in the rifles Sweden has sold as surplus. But let's go your way just for fun. :)

Finland did "buy" (gifted) some M96 to cover shortfalls for secondline usage, basically homeguard situations, because the Finnish army had more than enough MN. This was during the time when USSR was threatening Finland with further aggression, until the German invasion gave the USSR something else to think about. And likely some of the Swedish volunteer units left a few behind during the winter war. But very few. And the Finns were so enthralled they gave them back. The vast majority of the rifles that Sweden has sold as surplus never saw combat, and not in an official capacity.

Which brings us round to Norway and Denmark? When did they use swedish rifles in combat?

Possibly a few were used by rebels in Central African republic at some time too.
 
I always assumed it was the cartridge. When I first started collecting milsurps I was told by a number of people that the 6.5x55 is the best shooting military cartridge. I never looked any further into it to see if it was true of course, but I make the unconscious assumption now that its true
 
Interesting thread!

Not for the question of accuracy difference which may be just a perception issue, but for the discussion about Finland which is going to make me do more research.

Why did USSR allow Finland to remain independent after WWII?
 
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