Interested in a 1911-style pistol in 38 Special

wasa

wasa

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I have a thing for the look of 1911s. Can't justify a Colt but currently have two Norincos : one in 45acp and one in 9mm.

While on Wikipedia I note that it claims that Norinco makes a "M1911A1 C, Colt M1911A1 Clone in .38 special" which got me Googling for this firearm in Canada. Marstar claims to have it in the past, but their website says it was a 45acp (see https://marstar.ca/product/norinco-model-m1911a1-c-hic/ )

So my question is, are there 1911-style pistols in 38 Special for sale in Canada? Reading that Colt may have made some years ago, and some people claim that you can shoot 38 Special from a 1911 Colt chambered in 38 Super with a new magazine (just random Internet person claim so I really have no idea). Coonan makes (made?) one in 357 Magnum. I can't afford that but interesting.

Edit - I used to have a S&W Model 52-2 which I guess is a 1911 style 38 Special. The 5 round magazines required modifications for PPC shooting and the 5-rounds mags would make 3-gun suboptimal.
 
Since you've had a S&W 52 I won't mention to purchase another one.

Unless you do some extensive machine work to the breech face of a 1911 38 Super slide it will NOT work w/ the 38 Spl rimmed case.

Coonan 1911 357 mags were a jam-o-matic.
 
.38 ballistics in a form that makes sense to feed through a semiauto comes out looking too much like 9mm, so .38 Special semis are going to be an awfully small niche. I suspect that historically it might have made sense when semis were new and 9mm hadn't arrived from Europe yet.
 
Just to clear away the myths and BS around this issue, 38Special conversions have been around since the early-mid 1950s but almost purely for use in bullseye - now called ‘precision’ - matches. The first and most famous are those built by Jim Clark. His company probably still has them on their product list. Colt produced a large bunch of ‘kits’ for the Gil Hebard company around 1960. A number of famed US bullseye pistol smiths used them to build guns. I obtained one of these in the late 90s and converted a Norinco, and yes the recutting of the slide face is a delicate but not all that difficult job. Colt did manufacture a pure blowback 1911 in 38 Sp. but it never had the accuracy or market penetration to be a success. They are now collector items at ridiculous prices. If you truly desire a 38 Special 1911, best look for one of the Clark guns, but expect to pay upwards of three thousand dollars for one, more if it is one of the ‘longslide’ versions or the slightly more common long-heavy with a Bowmar rib. Colt magazines work well but are all getting aged now, but one of the California mag makers still has it in the catalogue and with a bit of tweaking they work fine. These conversions can still be seen on occasion at ISSF matches.
Dr Jim
 
DANS40X said:
Since you've had a S&W 52 I won't mention to purchase another one.

Unless you do some extensive machine work to the breech face of a 1911 38 Super slide it will NOT work w/ the 38 Spl rimmed case.

Coonan 1911 357 mags were a jam-o-matic.
Click to expand...

Coonan. Jam matic - FALSE - I own one and shoot mostly 38 Special in it. No jam in .38 or .357. 100 % reliability. Shooting .38 special +P in a Coonan is like shooting .22 LR. It is that fun.:)
You have to install the proper spring and use - as directed - close to full load .38 special or + P ammo.

The 1911 .38 special of old days were shooting .38 special Wadcutter for one hand bullseye competition.
Those necessitate lots of modifications including magazine. Colt offered a .38 special 1911 at one time but probably a limited Custom shop item.
Gunsmith Jim Clark was one offering those.
Those were competition gun designed for one game. They were popular if you could afford them, but many shoot PPC style revolver ( take that loosely since they were different ) at a lower cost of acquisition and aggravation for that game.

The Clark guns were looking a bit like this :
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6630608D-7E9B-411A-B62F-E980F355E836.jpg

You can contact Clark and ask if they could make one for you again..but expect to pay the high end $$ for it if they do accept to make one for you.
 

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The Coonan is the only one I'm aware of.

Like DANS40X said, the 38 super is rimless, whereas the 38 special is a rimmed case. The fact that they both have "38" in the name does not make them compatible whatsoever. You'd be in for a LOT of headaches trying to get 38 special to feed/function reliably through a semi-auto pistol designed for any rimless cartridge.

That, and the standard 1911 magazine is nowhere near long enough to fit a 38 special in it (A 38 special is over 1/4" longer than a 45 ACP). You'd have to start with a larger frame pistol, which is why the Coonan resembles a 1911, but is dimensionally larger.
 
All interesting info! Thanks. Before the zombie apocalypse I used my Ruger Blackhawk in 357/38Sp for Bullseye and my S&W K-frame in 38 Sp for PPC shooting so I have lots of experience loading 38 WC/SWC. As expected, sounds like I can't afford a Coonan or a Colt or even another S&W 52 (needed the money during divorce... sigh).

Any leads on this mysterious Norinco? Was it ever actually sold in Canada?
 
The “mysterious Norinco” is probably someone’s miss-interpretation of ‘38S’ as the other variety. Norinco as I recall did produce some 38Super pistols but 38Special would never have been in their NorthAmerican sales catalogue- it’s in with the apparently mythical Norinco Luger clone. By the way, under the existing US state department Regis Clark cannot sell you a pistol, nor can Brownells sell you a barrel without way too much hoop jumping and dollar dispensing. Because I was heavily into ISSF and bullseye I’ve acquired three S&W m52s - real love-hate relationship, but with a heavy for end weight it became more fun in the last one. I also have an early Hammerli P240 that came to me with a bulged buggered barrel - Dave Wilson in Washington built and sold me a new one - gorgeous and X-Ring accurate at 50 yards, but almost a thousand dollars after wrestling with bureaubrats and cross border transit fees. The Norinco based conversion you’ve heard about - it runs reliably and is as accurate as a Clark. Now that precision is fading in popularity all of these are collector items ����☹️��
Dr Jim
 
wasa said:
All interesting info! Thanks. Before the zombie apocalypse I used my Ruger Blackhawk in 357/38Sp for Bullseye and my S&W K-frame in 38 Sp for PPC shooting so I have lots of experience loading 38 WC/SWC. As expected, sounds like I can't afford a Coonan or a Colt or even another S&W 52 (needed the money during divorce... sigh).

Any leads on this mysterious Norinco? Was it ever actually sold in Canada?
Click to expand...

There are no records of any Norinco pistol in .38spl in the FRT, and only handful of others. 7 entries for 1911's made by Colt, 6 by Caspian Arms, 2 by Clark, 1 by ADC, Para Ord., Essex and Peters-Stahl, as well as 1 unknown/custom build.

Additionally there is of course the S&W 52 (-1/-2) as previously mentioned as well as the fantastic SIG/Hammerli P240 (I believe member Harry Callahan has or had one of these) and also an entry for a Czech pistol from the 1980's called the Korriphila HSP701
 
I think Irunguns can bring them in. Clark cannot sell direct but trough a US FFL like Irunguns got.
My friends did purchase custom Ed Brown and some IPSC guys got their custom gun made in the US and imported thereafter.

I did purchase 1911 barrels from Brownells, nothing complicated as far as paperwork. A 38 special WC conversion is not a matter of barrel..the whole system have to be tuned for it. The gun have to be slick like hell to be able to cycle with 3-4 grains of bullseye under a 148 grains WC bullet. And the mag...another piece that must be right to work.

Those guns were custom special order from gunsmiths made on Colt base gun.In those years - Colt were ruling the 1911 market. Even Colt - under their custom shop - might have made a few - but not a factory offering to all.

As for a Norinco 1911 .38 special WC ...I would believe it when I see it..due to the nature of customization required on a 1911..there is no way Norinco would build that or even attempt to build that.

The 1911 can only accept the .38 Special with a wadcutter bullet - fully inside the case - that mean it accept only the casing length.

.38 special with any other bullet will not fit. You need a Coonan or LAR Grizzly size frame to accept those.

To get such a gun build today, a .38 WC bullseye gun..my guess you will end up in the $6-7 k + range easy. Even wondering if the knowledge still exist today to make it work. Richard Ennie is alive and from that period. He is with Nighthawk Custom. Less Baer is another still alive.
 
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Yeah, I suppose Irunguns would do the job, but since old Jim Clark died I really wonder about the quality in the current production.
indeed it takes more than the barrel, the slide face has to be opened, the extractor needs to be modified and a 9 or 38Super is best to start with, the mainspring has to be replaced with an 18 pound version, the recoil spring is an eight pound, and all the other tuning stuff to tighten sled, barrel fit, bushing, and the trigger work. No need to tell me I’ve built a bunch of 45s, a few 9mms, as well as the 38Special. I’ve been at it since 1975.
cheers Jim
 

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T&G said:
Yeah, I suppose Irunguns would do the job, but since old Jim Clark died I really wonder about the quality in the current production.
indeed it takes more than the barrel, the slide face has to be opened, the extractor needs to be modified and a 9 or 38Super is best to start with, the mainspring has to be replaced with an 18 pound version, the recoil spring is an eight pound, and all the other tuning stuff to tighten sled, barrel fit, bushing, and the trigger work. No need to tell me I’ve built a bunch of 45s, a few 9mms, as well as the 38Special. I’ve been at it since 1975.
cheers Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

Wondering if the knowledge or the will to build one even exist today..
Clark is not listing any in their current offering. Baer has a .45 ACP in bullseye config with a Bomar style rib probably build for light 185 SWC.

I have not tried a WC bullet in my Coonan..but I will..:) got springs and the mag is long and guiding the case ‘almost ‘ until it reach the chamber.. it chamber from the mag by hand..but under cycling I doupt it.
Might beat the gun more than anything with light spring. Gun is tight so my guess it will be just be a single shot.
Will see..but no expectation..it is not build for that at all.
 
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Scotty454 said:
The Coonan is the only one I'm aware of.

Like DANS40X said, the 38 super is rimless, whereas the 38 special is a rimmed case. The fact that they both have "38" in the name does not make them compatible whatsoever. You'd be in for a LOT of headaches trying to get 38 special to feed/function reliably through a semi-auto pistol designed for any rimless cartridge.

That, and the standard 1911 magazine is nowhere near long enough to fit a 38 special in it (A 38 special is over 1/4" longer than a 45 ACP). You'd have to start with a larger frame pistol, which is why the Coonan resembles a 1911, but is dimensionally larger.
Click to expand...

Well Colt did make one, standard sized 1911, but you had to use full wad cutter ammo, no lead sticking out of the case, or enough for the crimp.
I shot the Smith 51, 52, they where a great gun, built for that. I have shot a 1/2 group off hand many years ago.
The colt I never played with much.
BTW last month or so I had 2 as new colt 38 special mags listed in the EE, Had one call on them , at a great price. A Smith 52 mag sold damn high on Switzers auction ,or is the one they bumped the date on, Dec 8th? will have to look again.
I have never seen a Norinco made or advertised in 38 sp. If there was at would have been a special order, and those guys don't do that unless the order is large.
I have seen one in 38 super. P.S. I see Janeau posted while I was typing so slow, Good picture of the ammo under discussion. BTW smiths are in the 1000-1500 range these days from what I see.
 
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Found a picture of those Colt !!
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And some read on the gun..
https://revivaler.com/colt-m1911-gold-cup-national-match-38-special/

How many were build by Colt ?
I doubt they were anywhere close to a custom build gun for accuracy and reliability but they are out there.

I think the OP got his answer...:)

Thanks guys..that was a nice walk in the past...
 

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marshall said:
I have never seen a Norinco made or advertised in 38 sp. If there was at would have been a special order, and those guys don't do that unless the order is large.
Click to expand...

There's the possibility that someone gunsmithed a custom one on a Norinco frame, and maker/serial still shows as what it was when it left the original factory.
 
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