Some Excellent Information on Ammo

G

grauhanen

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The first post here is an introduction. I will reserve a number of spaces following this first post for more information.

Recently I read some excellent posts by a German fellow, the Stowaway, on a thread about ammo sorting on accurateshooter.com. His posts have outstanding images and graphics that really do a great job illustrating some very important things about .22LR ammo. Readers on benchrest.com and rimfireaccuracy.com were urged to read the Stowaway's information. Readers on CGN can benefit by seeing it.

This information is not mine and credit must go to the Stowaway.

For the original thread and the Stowaway’s original posts, see https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/22-lr-bullet-sorting.4012117/page-3 The thread itself began in late July this year and was not especially noteworthy until the Stowaway first posted in December, a few weeks ago.

Since it is necessary to be registered and logged in at accurateshooter.com to see the graphics, I will reproduce the gist of the Stowaway’s information here. Again, please note that this information is that of the Stowaway, not me. He deserves the credit for the information.

The posts were excellent not only for the general information they had about some aspects of .22LR ammo but also for the outstanding graphics, some of them in the form of GIF files – pictures that show movement. (I apologize if my terminology is incorrect as I’m not up-to-date with terms and computer knowledge.)

I will try to make the Stowaway’s own words appear in bold to distinguish them, although I may make a few errors in this regard. I will refrain from making any observations or conclusions.

If I mess up the format here, I apologize in advance.
 
The first post made by the Stowaway in the thread referred to above, #54, came after the thread had been dormant for two-and-a-half months. It dealt with sorting by rim thickness.

He said the following and added a few images to illustrate.

1.) Sorting .22LR by rim thickness for accuracy is not really helpful.
2.) The measurement can be incorrect depending on the Rim inclination.






 
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The second post by the Stowaway concerned sorting by weight.

He was to the point:

He said sorting by weight was not useful. He added that most European 3P and BR shooters don't do it. More important were what he called the hidden bullet flaw.

To illustrate with an example of a hidden flaw within a round of .22LR ammo:




In his next post, the Stowaway insisted that the best way to get good accuracy was simple: good ammo is the best way to get more accuracy.

To illustrate his point, he showed a gif with ammo from three different lots of SK Rifle Match.



He notes that the difference from lot to lot with the better Lapua Center X ammo was less.



In conclusion to the post, the Stowaway gave this advice:

Look for the crimp, the last ring, and the grease grooves.

However, these are not factors for sorting rimfire ammunition.
__________

In his following post, the Stowaway observed that while SK ammo was good, Lapua production is a bit better or more consistent.

He goes on to say

Rimifire ammunition can be measured and compared from the outside. But sometimes the differences are hidden and can only be determined after the shot.

For example:
A non-concentric crimp. This has an effect when the bullet starts in the chamber.




Example: bad concentric crimp.



Example: good concentric crimp.

 
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Please note that this information is from posts made by the Stowaway here https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/22-lr-bullet-sorting.4012117/page-4

Continuing, the Stowaway noted how difficult it is to sort ammo by visual means.

Can you spot ammunition defects by looking?
Does anyone see the grass grow?

The magic word is rotation.
Look at standstill.
Look with rotation.

Rotating the ammo gives a better chance to see differences. The first is a Federal, the second Eley Match, and the last Lapua Midas.







the Stowaway concluded with this observation: Every brand has its own peculiarities due to the manufacturing process.
 
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Once again, this information was posted by the Stowaway here https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/22-lr-bullet-sorting.4012117/page-4

In his final post to date, made on December 20, the Stowaway added the information shown below. People more well-versed with barrel vibration and harmonics may wish to offer further observations of the initial information shown first.

No matter what you do,
if you have a harmonic barrel,

(massles rod, veloctiy is zerro)
[no changes made to spelling]





the Stowaway offered the following on ammo concentricity.

you have perfect factory ammunition,
and you want to be at the front,
even then,
only helps to look at every bullet !

Measure with the Concentricity Gauge, is only half the truth.





Eley can be a little tricky. The bullet eventually flies well to the target.





If readers think that what the Stowaway has presented is exhaustive, he has assured us that it is not.

There are more factors to look at and sort.
Thank you for your attention.
Greetings from Germany.
 
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Thanks for posting, it's very informative. I'm not a benchrest shooter at all but I do enjoy shooting accurate 22's. I imagine if you do a lot of precision shooting you will see the value in high end ammo but I've always been perplexed in how some average ammo will shoot as well or better than higher end stuff. An example would be Federal Hunter Match. AT 50 yds it will average as good as any Eley or SK match ammo in my CZ 452 Varmint. I have never tried Tenex or other really high quality stuff but this has been my observation so far. TC
 
Soft lead bullets react differently wrt to jacketed bullets when it obturates and then wiggles down the barrel. I don't think issues in the skirt will change the results unless the material in the skirt is actually missing... and hopefully, that gets sorted out before the bullet enters any case.

Good info but the variables we can't see/measure will also have an affect on our results - ie variations in primer amount, location and energy... and of course, how much fuel is in the case.

Thought runout would be an issue, especially out of a semi auto... seems less of a problem then I believed. And that goes alot to what happens to the bullet under the pressure of firing, throat design, etc.

Lots of variables... way to complicated to figure out. I just shoot it and let the target sort out what I should use.

Jerry
 
Thanks Glenn for posting this information , awesome , a gif is worth a thousand words
I think The Stoaway may have mentioned that the "Hidden Bullet Flaw is more common than we may think

great information
 
maxy said:
Thanks Glenn for posting this information , awesome , a gif is worth a thousand words
I think The Stoaway may have mentioned that the "Hidden Bullet Flaw is more common than we may think

great information
Click to expand...

There is an ELEY factory tour video somewhere on the net... I was stunned at the care they put into making, viewing, sorting the bullet... can see why top tier ammo costs so much.

But less defects is well worth the cost.... at least to me.

Jerry
 
Jefferson said:
so who is manufacturing this rotation device, how expensive is it and when can I buy one
Click to expand...

I don't know which specific device is used by the Stowaway to show rotation. There are rimfire concentricity gauges made by Neilson Brothers. Below is their top model which, according to their website, sells for $365 USD. See the Olympic Model here h ttp://nielsonbrothersarms.com/Rimfire.htm There are other makers of these types of gauges as well.



The "theory" and explanation of the value of the concentricity gauge is laid out here by the manufacturer, Neilson Brothers. h ttp://www.nielsonbrothersarms.com/22%20Concentricity.htm. Of course, the information should not necessarily be taken at face value since Neilson Brothers have a pecuniary interest.

For the more casual reader, there are further details about concentricity measurements and their effects on accuracy in post #9 here on CGN https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Ammuntion?p=15759828&viewfull=1#post15759828

________________________________________

In general, if nothing else, the information provided by the Stowaway in his posts on accurateshooter.com reaffirms the point that sorting ammo is time consuming and can be expensive. There are some forms of sorting that may be more practical and yield improvement -- such as evaluating concentricity -- but it's clear that the best thing shooters can do is to buy the best ammo they can get. That's precisely what is recommended.

To add an important point, it's not the particular brand of ammo that is used that will have the biggest effect on results.

Whether it's a certain variety of Lapua (e.g. Center X or Midas +) or Eley (Tenex, Match, or some other), or even SK (Rifle Match, Standard Plus, Pistol Match) doesn't matter a great deal. Every match ammo maker has ammo that will shoot well in a particular rifle (or as well as a rifle can shoot).

Ammo is made in batches or lots and not all lots will shoot equally. Some will shoot better or worse than others. This applies to all grades of ammo, even the most expensive.

There's no brand or variety of ammo for which all lots will shoot equally well in the same rifle. There are so many variables and so much room for ammo inconsistency between lots, that when a match ammo maker can categorize a quanitity of ammo as a lot -- by which they mean the ammo within it shares common characteristics in production and component similarities -- that manufacturer is asserting that the ammo in that lot is all as similar as can be on the day it was produced and for the grade it makes. That doesn't mean that it won't have fliers because even the best ammo varieties can have them -- just fewer than less expensive varieties generally have. In other words, better ammo will usually have fewer fliers than lesser ammo, but there's no guarantee that all will be "perfect" or shoot identically.

If it helps, shooters might regard every round as a flier. With very good rifles with very good ammo for them, some rounds are fliers by only the very smallest of margins, a degree so small that they almost exactly go into the same hole as the preceding round -- almost exactly but not quite. These are the rounds that in a very good rifle produce groups in the low .1's and better. All other rounds are also fliers, with the difference being they are worse by degrees. The worst of them are so far out of the POA that casual shooters can easily say that it was a flier because it struck nowhere near the POA. With a rimfire rifle that is not among the most precisely shooting of .22LR firearms, there will be, of course, more "fliers" with even more dispersion even when using the best ammo available.

What's important is finding the lot(s) of ammo of a particular brand and variety that will shoot very well in your rifle. Every rifle is different even if they are the same make and model. Their bores are not identical, even if they are nearly so. While these differences are beyond the scope of this discussion, the result is that each rifle may shoot the same ammo differently. In short, ammo can be different lot-to-lot and rifles can be different from one to the other. Some lots of Center X may outshoot some lots of the more expensive Midas + in your rifle. But that doesn't mean your rifle "likes" Center X and doesn't like Midas +. It means that those particular lots of Center X are very good for your rifle and those lots of Midas weren't.
 
grauhanen said:
I don't know which specific device is used by the Stowaway to show rotation. There are rimfire concentricity gauges made by Neilson Brothers. Below is their top model which, according to their website, sells for $365 USD. See the Olympic Model here h ttp://nielsonbrothersarms.com/Rimfire.htm There are other makers of these types of gauges as well.



The "theory" and explanation of the value of the concentricity gauge is laid out here by the manufacturer, Neilson Brothers. h ttp://www.nielsonbrothersarms.com/22%20Concentricity.htm. Of course, the information should not necessarily be taken at face value since Neilson Brothers have a pecuniary interest.

For the more casual reader, there are further details about concentricity measurements and their effects on accuracy in post #9 here on CGN https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-Ammuntion?p=15759828&viewfull=1#post15759828

________________________________________

In general, if nothing else, the information provided by the Stowaway in his posts on accurateshooter.com reaffirms the point that sorting ammo is time consuming and can be expensive. There are some forms of sorting that may be more practical and yield improvement -- such as evaluating concentricity -- but it's clear that the best thing shooters can do is to buy the best ammo they can get. That's precisely what is recommended.

To add an important point, it's not the particular brand of ammo that is used that will have the biggest effect on results.

Whether it's a certain variety of Lapua (e.g. Center X or Midas +) or Eley (Tenex, Match, or some other), or even SK (Rifle Match, Standard Plus, Pistol Match) doesn't matter a great deal. Every match ammo maker has ammo that will shoot well in a particular rifle (or as well as a rifle can shoot).

Ammo is made in batches or lots and not all lots will shoot equally. Some will shoot better or worse than others. This applies to all grades of ammo, even the most expensive.

There's no brand or variety of ammo for which all lots will shoot equally well in the same rifle. There are so many variables and so much room for ammo inconsistency between lots, that when a match ammo maker can categorize a quanitity of ammo as a lot -- by which they mean the ammo within it shares common characteristics in production and component similarities -- that manufacturer is asserting that the ammo in that lot is all as similar as can be on the day it was produced and for the grade it makes. That doesn't mean that it won't have fliers because even the best ammo varieties can have them -- just fewer than less expensive varieties generally have. In other words, better ammo will usually have fewer fliers than lesser ammo, but there's no guarantee that all will be "perfect" or shoot identically.

If it helps, shooters might regard every round as a flier. With very good rifles with very good ammo for them, some rounds are fliers by only the very smallest of margins, a degree so small that they almost exactly go into the same hole as the preceding round -- almost exactly but not quite. These are the rounds that in a very good rifle produce groups in the low .1's and better. All other rounds are also fliers, with the difference being they are worse by degrees. The worst of them are so far out of the POA that casual shooters can easily say that it was a flier because it struck nowhere near the POA. With a rimfire rifle that is not among the most precisely shooting of .22LR firearms, there will be, of course, more "fliers" with even more dispersion even when using the best ammo available.

What's important is finding the lot(s) of ammo of a particular brand and variety that will shoot very well in your rifle. Every rifle is different even if they are the same make and model. Their bores are not identical, even if they are nearly so. While these differences are beyond the scope of this discussion, the result is that each rifle may shoot the same ammo differently. In short, ammo can be different lot-to-lot and rifles can be different from one to the other. Some lots of Center X may outshoot some lots of the more expensive Midas + in your rifle. But that doesn't mean your rifle "likes" Center X and doesn't like Midas +. It means that those particular lots of Center X are very good for your rifle and those lots of Midas weren't.
Click to expand...

great post, thank you. I would like to add my own observations to the elusive quest of 22 accuracy. when I bought a Tikka T1X I was very impressed with the quality of the bore and the fit of the bolt, and was quite disappointed when cycling the action to chamber a round. no matter how concentric the cartridge is, the trip into the chamber after getting stripped out of the magazine was quite brutal. seeing obvious hard contact with the feed ramp and knowing that this would cause the bullet to become misaligned in the case made me do some delicate reshaping and tuning to the feedlips and the extractor. now the trip into the chamber is very much like the older controlled feed centerfire bolt action rifles. no matter how perfect the cartridge is, a hard ride into the chamber can cause accuracy issues. another possible cause of bullet misalignment is trying to squeeze that tenth cartridge into the magazine, I only load 5 in my magazines even if they hold 10.
 
Interesting thread. Thanks grauhanen.

What's interesting here is the possibility of a slight misinterpretation of the values when sorting by rim thickness.

If you were to sort rim thickness using a pointed or rounded tip on the dial indicator, you would be measuring at one specific point along what may or may not be an angular surface.

If you were to measure using a button shaped tip on the indicator that was larger than the diameter of the rim, you would in essence be measuring the angular value in addition to variations in rim thickness.

The problem in the end would be how to differentiate if a rim was thicker or if it was thin, but angled, where both measured the same on a rim thickness measurement with a button tip.

I would assume rounds that had very low rim run out and a consistent rim thickness would be most consistent as opposed to focus only on one factor or the other. Rims that measured to be the thinnest would likely in fact be both the flattest and the thinnest. By contrast, rounds that measured with the thickest rims could be either the most angled or the thickest, and possibly both.

I would also assume that the difference in terms of velocity has more to do with primer compound distribution than the effects on head space as pictured here. Since the brass on 22LR is thin and pliable, a rifle with a tight head space (like Vudoo) would surely flatten out the rim when chambered.


grauhanen said:
The first post made by the Stowaway in the thread referred to above, #54, came after the thread had been dormant for two-and-a-half months. It dealt with sorting by rim thickness.

He said the following and added a few images to illustrate.

1.) Sorting .22LR by rim thickness for accuracy is not really helpful.

Click to expand...
 
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Thanks for sharing! and yes quite good experiment in this thread that's clearly demonstrate some facts. Kind of a myth buster.

That's quite hard to admit but we do rely on manufacturer and we will have inconsistency in production lines like any other production lines. What ever you produce you will have a reject rate and acceptation criteria no product is perfect, you always trying to do the best with the money customer is ready to pay for and that make the difference between products. There is also a fact that with the same $ some company will do better than others. At the end, like @Grauhanen just say , sometime we need to get out to shoot and test. I always though you have what you pay for and 22 LR ammunition is following this rule with some exceptions.

All my respect to Stowaway for all this work, I realize I am more action guy than scientist don't have the patience to do all testing.
 
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