M10x vs type 81 final results

[Murray 3-D]

still shootable?

Sure it is. But that doesnt mean they still dont suck. I agree its important to train and be proficient with what u have or were issued. But at the same time improving the gear can certainly reduce strain and increase your efficiency by a huge amount as well.

I shot the Cabin Fever Challenge back in 2018 with my Type 81sa rifle in stock configuration. I really had to try hard to achieve a score somewhere around 60. But yet the following year i attempted it again, with a muzzle brake and PKA optic equipped, and with relative ease managed to score 112. While wearing a Soviet officers jacket to boot haha it demonstrated to me just how much of a dissadvantage the irons were on my Type 81sa.

In 2018 i also used my Colt A2 Hbar with a carry handle upper. In stock form with the ghost ring sights i managed to score 105 with extreme ease. That showed me how properly designed irons can almost hold their own to optics.

 

[Travis Bickle]

IMO they are worse then AKs. Ive shot one and handled a few over the years. I think its a combo of the thick front sight post and short sight radius that plagues the Type 81SA.

Agree fully.

Many Combloc designs suffer from the short sight radius issue 100% and this a major factor in them being perceived as "not accurate" rifles. At least less accurate than they likely can be made to shoot by your average gun owner.
The SKS is a good example of this which can demonstrate the truth of the statement.

If you mount a rear receiver Tech Site Peep and a precision front post, it's amazing how much more consistent your sight picture becomes thus allowing focus on a repeated consistent point of aim (translating to an "increase in accuracy" as it's perceived when people go down range to check a target with calipers lol) Suddenly your SKS is putting 10 rounds of surplus Chinese ammo in a nice consistent 5" circle at 100 meters just shooting off a bag etc Which for me is about what I've always managed even with an AR15 at the same distance with bulk ammo and iron sights as a comparison. Mind you a quick trigger job on the SKS is required too lol but I digress.

AK47/74 and all their clones + T81 all have the same issue. Very short sight radius and thick blocky front posts and rear square notch tang sight. It's inherently the worst possible combination for irons for any rifle.
Again though that being said, mass produced rifles slammed out for military use to put rounds in a torso out to 300 meters is all they ever had to do and the sights on all of those guns will do exactly that even with basic training on them.

But yes they do suck! lol 100% And this from a huge fan of rugged, simple, combloc utility firearms hahaha

I always wondered why they never adapted the design over the years to maybe hump up the rear of the AK47/74s stamped metal receiver behind the receiver cover, mount a simple windage only worm screw peep sight on it? Make the front sight block a little higher to clear the gas tube and sight line.
Similar to the FN FALs setup. Then just slightly modify the receiver cover to lock down at the rear in a simple way that still compliments ease of manufacture etc.
You just think after all these years they might have.....but then again, if the rifle does exactly what it was supposed to do, why change it I guess right? lol

 

[medvedqc]

yes Travis you nailed the sights are made for it and works.

can it be better no doubt.

 

[bananarama]

So just to clarify, I don't think you've made a bad choice and I don't mean to come across that way, I made my comments to highlight to those reading the thread an alternative that could be purchased for the same money.

I chose the CZ527, it's good for hunting, and affordable target shooting out to 400m

If I wanted an AK without paying for a Finnish one I wouldn't buy one because all the alternatives are lots of money and little quality, but if I had to then sure the Type 91 and M10X are the closest things out there. No disagreements there.

If I wanted a semi-auto in 7.62x39 I'd lean towards a WS-MCR because I could change the upper to 5.56 in the future, I can use 10 round magazines, availability of accessories and ability to put on an optic.

If I wanted a modern rifle with a bit of history attached to it I'd go towards the X95

If I wanted something really high end I'd hit the APC

do not buy the APC. I've owned 2. I've sold 2. Enough said.

 

[firebat]

do not buy the APC. I've owned 2. I've sold 2. Enough said.

What made you sell it?

 

[CZ Shooter]

Agree fully.

Many Combloc designs suffer from the short sight radius issue 100% and this a major factor in them being perceived as "not accurate" rifles. At least less accurate than they likely can be made to shoot by your average gun owner.
The SKS is a good example of this which can demonstrate the truth of the statement.

If you mount a rear receiver Tech Site Peep and a precision front post, it's amazing how much more consistent your sight picture becomes thus allowing focus on a repeated consistent point of aim (translating to an "increase in accuracy" as it's perceived when people go down range to check a target with calipers lol) Suddenly your SKS is putting 10 rounds of surplus Chinese ammo in a nice consistent 5" circle at 100 meters just shooting off a bag etc Which for me is about what I've always managed even with an AR15 at the same distance with bulk ammo and iron sights as a comparison. Mind you a quick trigger job on the SKS is required too lol but I digress.

AK47/74 and all their clones + T81 all have the same issue. Very short sight radius and thick blocky front posts and rear square notch tang sight. It's inherently the worst possible combination for irons for any rifle.
Again though that being said, mass produced rifles slammed out for military use to put rounds in a torso out to 300 meters is all they ever had to do and the sights on all of those guns will do exactly that even with basic training on them.

But yes they do suck! lol 100% And this from a huge fan of rugged, simple, combloc utility firearms hahaha

I always wondered why they never adapted the design over the years to maybe hump up the rear of the AK47/74s stamped metal receiver behind the receiver cover, mount a simple windage only worm screw peep sight on it? Make the front sight block a little higher to clear the gas tube and sight line.
Similar to the FN FALs setup. Then just slightly modify the receiver cover to lock down at the rear in a simple way that still compliments ease of manufacture etc.
You just think after all these years they might have.....but then again, if the rifle does exactly what it was supposed to do, why change it I guess right? lol

There are likely several factors as to why the sights are where they are.
The Red army soldiers were used to certain configuration, such as the Mosin Nagant..so switching them over would be easier.
The AK was meant to be used for heavy supressive fire...hitting a man sized target at 200-300 feet was good enough.
Any longer than that was a job for the Soviet snipers to pick up where the AK has left off, so that part was covered

Also, sight acquisition at closer combat distances is faster with the AK configuration.

Being that there were/are so many countries producing the AK, adding a tweak (no matter how small) would just complicate interchangeability, which is/was a major advantage when those countries were on the same side of the fence...the tooling was already set up certain way.
Modification such as this, no matter how small and how well thought out would likely end up being an expensive logistical nightmare.
The Russian doctrine dictates that if something works, don't #### with it.

Personally with my up close eye sight going south, I actualy like the fact, that I can still see the rear sights on my Type 81...were they mounted any closer, it would likely be a blurr.

 

[firebat]

Any longer than that was a job for the Soviet snipers to pick up where the AK has left off, so that part was covered

Not just that, Soviet and modern Russian infantry doctrine relies heavily on the group weapons. Each infantry squad of 10 motor rifles had RPK or PKM besides SVD and also was mounted on a BTR/BMP with their auto cannons and AT rockets. These days it's even more pronounced in the Russian army, where each squad always has at least one PKM or PKP (no RPKs anymore). Most of the soldiers in the squad are either group weapons operators or carry some heavy weaponry like MG or RPG. AKs play secondary role in this whole vision, more like a PDW rather than delivering main firepower.

 

[polskiogorki]

I don't mind the sights on the type 81.

 

[Ustauk]

Should the M10x have a similar proviso to the one included in the Troy PAR's description:

Requires Brass cased ammunition for proper function

If that's not accurate, what kind of proviso should be added, if the mechanical changes proposed upthread does not help with steel case surplus?

 

[polskiogorki]

Should the M10x have a similar proviso to the one included in the Troy PAR's description:



If that's not accurate, what kind of proviso should be added, if the mechanical changes proposed upthread does not help with steel case surplus?

Its not the steel cases that are the problem, its the hard primers.
The odd surplus rd would fire , when it did it would eject properly and feed the next one.

 

[Ustauk]

Ok, maybe if the issue can't be fixed the description should read "Will not function with ammunition that requires heavy strikes on the primer." Hopefully they can just figure out how to tune the firearm to provide a forceful enough hammer strike.

 

[josey wales]

...

 

[BlackVoid]

If that's not accurate, what kind of proviso should be added, if the mechanical changes proposed upthread does not help with steel case surplus?

M10x requires "to-spec" ammunition, like russian Barnaul, which is a lacquered steel.

that said, i'd prefer a more "chinese ammo" friendly chamber geometry, accuracy sucks anyway due to a sloppy rail design.

 

[medvedqc]

There are likely several factors as to why the sights are where they are.
The Red army soldiers were used to certain configuration, such as the Mosin Nagant..so switching them over would be easier.
The AK was meant to be used for heavy supressive fire...hitting a man sized target at 200-300 feet was good enough.
Any longer than that was a job for the Soviet snipers to pick up where the AK has left off, so that part was covered

Also, sight acquisition at closer combat distances is faster with the AK configuration.

Being that there were/are so many countries producing the AK, adding a tweak (no matter how small) would just complicate interchangeability, which is/was a major advantage when those countries were on the same side of the fence...the tooling was already set up certain way.
Modification such as this, no matter how small and how well thought out would likely end up being an expensive logistical nightmare.
The Russian doctrine dictates that if something works, don't #### with it.

Personally with my up close eye sight going south, I actualy like the fact, that I can still see the rear sights on my Type 81...were they mounted any closer, it would likely be a blurr.

that doctrine was not only on the warsaw pact at least up to the 80s and beginning 90s then after i cant tell ...

 

[medvedqc]

I don't mind the sights on the type 81.

that make at least 3 of us here ... maybe older generation trained with open sights before scope or red dot ...

 

[Rick911]

10X has a lazy design with screws... I don't like firearms with screws. Kel tech being the king of screws.

 

[firebat]

that make at least 3 of us here ... maybe older generation trained with open sights before scope or red dot ...

Irons are fine.. I'm used to shooting SKS and this is not much different. Wide front post is actually good for windage corrections. These guys cover thin vs wide front post topic pretty well (starting from 11:22 mark):

 

[Travis Bickle]

that make at least 3 of us here ... maybe older generation trained with open sights before scope or red dot ...

Not entirely lol
I've been shooting irons my entire life and still.
I hate scopes and I don't like red dots or optics of any kind.

There's something about the T81 sights that I just didn't like.
I've fired many an AK as well over the years. They're good enough to use for fast quick shooting at torso sized targets which, again is exactly what they're made for.

I think the issue for most is that they buy a combloc 300m torso blaster and we shoot them in a bench vice with surplus ammo then measure the groups with calipers and get all bent out of shape when it isn't putting 10 rounds in a 3" circle at 100m
The sort of equivalent of buying a sledge hammer and being upset at it's poor ability to simply tap in a finishing nail

Expectations are not in line with the tools intended purpose or an understanding of what the tool was designed to do. Just my personal observations from being on these forums for way too long lol

 

[HvacFridge Apprentice]

I figure this might be a decent thread to mention I picked up an m10x recently, out of the box I put a little clp on things, took it out today, 100 rounds Barnaul, zero malfunctions, able to hit man sized steel target at 200 regularly (belt buckle poa). FWIW I guess

 

[45ACPKING]

Not entirely lol
I've been shooting irons my entire life and still.
I hate scopes and I don't like red dots or optics of any kind.

There's something about the T81 sights that I just didn't like.
I've fired many an AK as well over the years. They're good enough to use for fast quick shooting at torso sized targets which, again is exactly what they're made for.

I think the issue for most is that they buy a combloc 300m torso blaster and we shoot them in a bench vice with surplus ammo then measure the groups with calipers and get all bent out of shape when it isn't putting 10 rounds in a 3" circle at 100m
The sort of equivalent of buying a sledge hammer and being upset at it's poor ability to simply tap in a finishing nail

Expectations are not in line with the tools intended purpose or an understanding of what the tool was designed to do. Just my personal observations from being on these forums for way too long lol

excellent post... totally agree.