Lettered Antique, converted from no go caliber

Moe said:
I know I am at a loss with so much advice going around. I have a Colt SAA made in 1893. It is re-barreled and re-cylindered to 38Spc by Colt in the 50's. Actually the Barrel says 38 Special but the cylinders chamber 357. Don't worry it just sees gentle 38 handloads. I have no letter and honestly a bit confused by all the advice on CGN as to how to go about getting a letter. I got a verifier to look at a Webley RIC a few years ago for me and he sent in a form to get the RCMP letter. Years later and I have not got the letter. I guess I am losing faith that I would get one for the Colt. I also have a few others but have FRT printouts that state the guns are antiques. That is all the venders provided and hope that flies. I do carry a printout from Colt's serial number lookup to help defuse things is stopped. It at least shows the gun was made in 1893. I have no Idea what the original caliber was. I have a genuine fear that if I call I will get screwed over.

Cheers
Moe
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This is the sad current state of affairs: If you call they will tell you to attempt to register it. They will then register it or put it in the process of registration as restricted and then kinda maybe or kind maybe not look through the FRT and if they find the right number and it will be de-registered or the registration process fails because its not a restricted firearm.... or it suddenly becomes a registered restricted firearm. If you do not have a Colt letter stating it started off in an antique status eligible caliber (IE not on the no go list) you are likely dead in the water. I had a long circular logic go around with Micheline at the Lab over this. She was very unpleasant to deal with. Said they don't have to give a letter, its a service they "provide" but don't have to. Doesn't matter that the week before they gave a letter to me for a .45 LC SAA converted to .45 Schofield but suddenly the gun now has to not only currently be in a caliber not on the list but also had to originate as one. I said OK , so has the law changed or what? She said no our policy has. She kept saying I have to apply to have the gun registered as restricted to get a letter. So I said I have a letter for the .45 Schofield you just sent me a week ago how can you deny me one now. REGISTER IT. OK and if I apply to register it as a restricted gun since your policy has changed and I cannot prove this second one has originated in the caliber you specify will I get an antique letter or will I now have a registered restricted handguns. She said you will have a registered restricted handgun. I said but the law hasn't changed so how can my .45 LC gun that was converted be ok but the other one is now a restricted handguns. She said its their policy she wouldnt argue and to apply to register my gun as restricted. #### off....


(my terminology may not be 100 accurate as to what they call this process).
 
appleorangefish said:
How did you convert a 45 LC to 45 schofield? isn't the schofield a shorter version of the 45 colt?
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Yes, easy. With a new 45 Schofield cylinder that does not accept .45 LC rounds. Same barrel. Some guys (not me, this is blasphemy lol) would use .45 ACP cylinders (I think with moonclips perhaps) and not even swap out the antique barrel and fire jacketed .45 ACP - not that smart to do. That was also allowed, but weird and kinda dumb but hey it was allowed. You used to be able to convert what was it again a 38-40 to .41 with a cylinder change only as well due to barrels actually being the same diameter or the more popular one was to convert frontier six shooters (the 44-40) to 44 special with a cylinder change only.
 
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caramel said:
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The Webley is fine in that FRT in .45 AUTO because all of those Webleys started out as 455's. That ones simple and easy at least. The Colt, and most other guns were available in a multitude of calibers so they don't have FRT sheets like this. They have hundreds (that might be a slight exaggeration) of FRT's for the Colt SAA.
 
gutinater said:
This is the sad current state of affairs: If you call they will tell you to attempt to register it. They will then register it or put it in the process of registration as restricted and then kinda maybe or kind maybe not look through the FRT and if they find the right number and it will be de-registered or the registration process fails because its not a restricted firearm.... or it suddenly becomes a registered restricted firearm. If you do not have a Colt letter stating it started off in an antique status eligible caliber (IE not on the no go list) you are likely dead in the water. I had a long circular logic go around with Micheline at the Lab over this. She was very unpleasant to deal with. Said they don't have to give a letter, its a service they "provide" but don't have to. Doesn't matter that the week before they gave a letter to me for a .45 LC SAA converted to .45 Schofield but suddenly the gun now has to not only currently be in a caliber not on the list but also had to originate as one. I said OK , so has the law changed or what? She said no our policy has. She kept saying I have to apply to have the gun registered as restricted to get a letter. So I said I have a letter for the .45 Schofield you just sent me a week ago how can you deny me one now. REGISTER IT. OK and if I apply to register it as a restricted gun since your policy has changed and I cannot prove this second one has originated in the caliber you specify will I get an antique letter or will I now have a registered restricted handguns. She said you will have a registered restricted handgun. I said but the law hasn't changed so how can my .45 LC gun that was converted be ok but the other one is now a restricted handguns. She said its their policy she wouldnt argue and to apply to register my gun as restricted. #### off....


(my terminology may not be 100 accurate as to what they call this process).
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My exact concern. I will be acquiring a Colt letter first to see where I stand before reaching out to the feds.

Cheers
Moe
 
Moe said:
My exact concern. I will be acquiring a Colt letter first to see where I stand before reaching out to the feds.

Cheers
Moe
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And if it says what you don't want it to say.. burn it lol. This is a bull#### way of having to live. Its legal what you have according to the law and the labs past precedent yet they have prohibited and restricted FRT numbers in the system for what should be and are antique status Colt SAA's (yes some are prohib even cause once its no longer an antique if it has a short barrel you get to skip restricted status and go straight to prohib). This system is set up so you there is no way to prove your property is legal when the so called lab experts contradict you and then you get to go to court. Is this canada or the USSR? I only own Colt SAA in .41 LC now with letters showing thats how they were built in that caliber originally and that they were built in 1897 or earlier so there is do way to dispute their status.
 
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KotKotofeich said:
They've caught on to that one pretty quickly, they now demand a colt letter listing the original caliber.
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That isn't as big a deal ad you think. Many (if not most) Colt letters only specify bore size, they do not specify the cartridge - ".44/c " and ."45/c" .

This is because that is how the ledgers were recorded.

Another interesting thing is what the study of the Colt London Agency correspondence reveals. Guns were commonly shipped (and recorded) in the wrong cartridge - so many were wrongly shipped that the London Agency got replacement barrels and cylinders shipped so that they didn't have to keep sending the guns back to Hartford to be corrected.
 
Interesting!

Yet I am now wondering!What if I buy SAA from US and the same time buy the barrel and cylinder for it to be .357 magnum(I found such a conversion kit for something like 150 USD)-and so somebody there will change it for me and send me an SAA with Pre-1898 original frame but with modern cylinder and barrel on it making it .357 magnum-will that classify as an antique??

By the way I am not that much fan of SAA-I mean Thunderer is not bad at all and can be very serious gun with right loads but the idea of converting an antique status revolver that is chambered in some large and long cartridge like Gasser montenegrin for example-and make a conversion for it to .357 magnum!The point is that I know that the cylinder and barrel will have enough extra thickness everywhere and since the frame is already large-it will be just an antique status firearm that will be capable of safely firing any loads in .357 magnum including those that will exceed 1000 fpe at the muzzle!

By the way I have a Smith Wesson old model army #2 and Forehand and Wadsworth "Terror" both in .32 rimfire long and quite soon the F&W will have the barrel length of 6" as well instead of the currently installed 2.5" one..As for the SWOMA I am loading it using adapters to .27 caliber nail gun blanks and cast lead bullets are just getting loaded from the front of the cylinder..So the 93 grain round nose cast lead bullet when I load the purple blank behind it just gets an average of almost 1500 fps(1480 average to be precise):the muzzle energy here is as much as 450 fpe on average!That being said the muzzle energy of a factory loaded .45acp fired from a 5" barrel of 1911 has only 370 fpe!And 9mm glock with the 4.5 inch barrel has only 360 fpe!So here is the way to get an antique going!Although for SWOMA in particular loading it in the way I described is only possible with a modification to the hinge:eek:therwise you will end up slowly but gradually wrecking the hinge that will eventually fail and it won't be good!If someone is interested I can tell the exact way to increase the strength of the said hinge as I did so that you won't experience any problems with it anymore!
 
Lee Enfield said:
That isn't as big a deal ad you think. Many (if not most) Colt letters only specify bore size, they do not specify the cartridge - ".44/c " and ."45/c" .
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I am aware. RCMP will reject a letter that states the original caliber as .45/c. They have been known to accept a letter that states .455.

Oleg7594 said:
Interesting!

Yet I am now wondering!What if I buy SAA from US and the same time buy the barrel and cylinder for it to be .357 magnum(I found such a conversion kit for something like 150 USD)-and so somebody there will change it for me and send me an SAA with Pre-1898 original frame but with modern cylinder and barrel on it making it .357 magnum-will that classify as an antique??
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No. The RCMP will ask for the Colt letter which will state the original caliber. If it says something like 45 your request will be rejected and your gun will remain restricted. Also they have enough brain cells to figure out that an antique gun could not have been manufactured in .357. All that aside from it not being very smart to convert an old antique to .357 - the frame is not strong enough.

Oleg7594 said:
By the way I am not that much fan of SAA-I mean Thunderer is not bad at all and can be very serious gun with right loads but the idea of converting an antique status revolver that is chambered in some large and long cartridge like Gasser montenegrin for example-and make a conversion for it to .357 magnum!The point is that I know that the cylinder and barrel will have enough extra thickness everywhere and since the frame is already large-it will be just an antique status firearm that will be capable of safely firing any loads in .357 magnum including those that will exceed 1000 fpe at the muzzle!
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Don't forget about the frame - it's not made to withstand modern cartridges and will stretch.
 
KotKotofeich said:
I am aware. RCMP will reject a letter that states the original caliber as .45/c. They have been known to accept a letter that states .455.

No. The RCMP will ask for the Colt letter which will state the original caliber. If it says something like 45 your request will be rejected and your gun will remain restricted. ...snip....
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That just illustrates that they are stacking the deck as a policy, that is pretty clearly an abuse of power.

But policy is not law -

Colt's were chambered in .44 Henry, .44 S&W, .44 Russian, .44 Colt and any if not all of the other .44 bore cartridges (.44 German Service) ect.

Some letters say .44/40, .44 S&W, .44 Russian, .44 Colt others say .44/c - that seems to be pretty clear that they are all different cartridges and .44/c seems closer to .44 Colt than the others.

Here is an interesting question, they base the policy on the (para)phrase "designed to chamber' - by that logic, the Colt 1873 was 'designed to chamber' .44 Colt and .44 Henry (.45 Colt was designed to fit the gun, not the other way around)... wouldn't that mean that by their logic, ALL Colt SAA's pre 1898 meet the letter of their 'policy'
 
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Stop trying to use logic :p You are right and I don't disagree with you as far as history of Colt revolvers go.

But I'm also telling you (from experience) how RCMP does things. Not much we can do about it.
 
My SAA made in 1893 is now with a 38 Special barrel and a 357 cylinder. There is no way I will ever touch off a 357 in her. Only light loaded 38's which I reload. If you get this gun please do the same. As KotKotofeich stated not following this advice will eventually wreck that gun.

Cheers
Moe
 
Oleg7594 said:
By the way I have a Smith Wesson old model army #2 and Forehand and Wadsworth "Terror" both in .32 rimfire long and quite soon the F&W will have the barrel length of 6" as well instead of the currently installed 2.5" one..As for the SWOMA I am loading it using adapters to .27 caliber nail gun blanks and cast lead bullets are just getting loaded from the front of the cylinder..So the 93 grain round nose cast lead bullet when I load the purple blank behind it just gets an average of almost 1500 fps(1480 average to be precise):the muzzle energy here is as much as 450 fpe on average!That being said the muzzle energy of a factory loaded .45acp fired from a 5" barrel of 1911 has only 370 fpe!And 9mm glock with the 4.5 inch barrel has only 360 fpe!So here is the way to get an antique going!Although for SWOMA in particular loading it in the way I described is only possible with a modification to the hinge:eek:therwise you will end up slowly but gradually wrecking the hinge that will eventually fail and it won't be good!If someone is interested I can tell the exact way to increase the strength of the said hinge as I did so that you won't experience any problems with it anymore!
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Do you have a picture of those "adpaters"? I'm surprised those old revolvers can handle 400 ftlbs of energy, enough of them have loose hinges as is.
 
QUOTE=appleorangefish;17732817]Ah i see, so it's not an RCMP issued letter, but looks like one, and I assume cites all the relevant legistlation to make it easy to understand. Is there a copy of it floating around? Looking through the stickies I can't find anything directly about it.[/QUOTE]

caramel said:
My PB is acting badly, as soon i will put a picture. Sorry for the wait.
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I have also spent endless hours looking for this "letter"... I am still hoping one gets posted.
 
So according to that letter, the only rifles that can be qualified for ''antique status'' are SINGLE SHOT models with a bore larger than 8.3mm (.3267in)?

The two regulations below are from the RCMP website


Antique firearms. The Criminal Code defines an antique firearm as either: (a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or. (b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm.Jul. 7, 2020

and

Rifles
Rifles manufactured before 1898 with the following characteristics:

able to discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than:
.22 Calibre Short
.22 Calibre Long
.22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges
able to discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine
 
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Yes. No repeating centerfire rifle qualifies as antique. Single shots only qualify if over the 8.3MM.
 
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