Buck to Doe ratio?

Spcamno

Spcamno

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What will you consider a healthy herd population in terms of buck to doe ratio and does it matter if the parcel size is large or small?

Seen a lot of bucks during rut (early November) but after that seen more does than bucks on the trail cam, could it be bucks from other areas travel out of their home region to pursue does or somethings else?

I normally harvest buck only even have doe tag but wants to preserve the deer population and do the right thing.
 
Natural populations have pretty close to 1:1 ratio of adult bucks bucks to adult does. So that must be a "Healthy" ratio, but I think ratios of 1:1 up to about 1:4 are probably OK for the herd health. Young of the year fawns tend to skew the observed numbers because so many people can't tell the difference in the field between does and fawns. In Saskatchewan our wildlife managers have consistently encouraged doe ( antlerless) harvest as part of the management strategy. Only harvesting bucks seems kinda silly unless the population has crashed due to bad winters or something like that and needs to recover.
 
GOOGLE best Buck to doe ratio.

Lots of reading.
As pointed out, there are lots of factors in play.

Fawn survival rate from predation
hunter success rate
hunter willingness to shoot does
winter severity

the list goes on
 
I read an article in Deer & Deer Hunting Magazine about 15-18 years ago about this. Generally this is a very informative magazine, articles are usually game managers and or wildlife biologists managing deer in US states. With long term plans ahead of them vs the flavour of the month the OMNRF goes with.

One article was about a large game hunting preserve (I think in Upper NY State) of 100,000 acres or so that was a privately owned place and the rich guys came here to hunt.
They hunted 100 deer annually, all bucks. No one would shoot does. That's the way it was (and still is lots of places)
Eventually the quality of the bucks was gone, so they hired a Biologist to help them out. Did some winter aerial surveys, deer counts etc.
Bio guy mandated NO bucks were to be shot, and a large # of does were to be shot. As in 100
Members were not happy but they did as directed since they were paying for the advice.
Did this for a couple years then the Bio guy allowed a small percentage of Mature bucks only to be shot and the rest does
Kept an eye on things and eventually they got some decent bucks back, but were never again a "Buck only" hunt club
Every year a % of doe deer had to be taken to maintain the balance...members finally accepted that does need to be taken.

Fast forward a few years and I am at a "for rent" hunt camp in North central WI. Hunting with an American friend from IL.
We rented a cabin and were assigned an area to hunt deer - bucks only allowed. No does deer ever.
All the deer racks on the wall of the eating area are very small.
2 pts, 3 pts, disfigured points you name it. Nothing decent.

I said to the lady (about 35) cooking the breakfast - "You need to shoot some doe deer"
She said "You're right. I've been telling my dad that for years, but no one will shoot does, and he wont allow it anyway"

Here is a picture of the deer hanging that year when we left (My friend and I did not shoot any deer)

They are all very small racks, all young deer, no older bucks doing the breeding....
Buck to Doe ratio is very important

dge8jEE.jpg
 
Bigbubba said:
I read an article in Deer & Deer Hunting Magazine about 15-18 years ago about this. Generally this is a very informative magazine, articles are usually game managers and or wildlife biologists managing deer in US states. With long term plans ahead of them vs the flavour of the month the OMNRF goes with.

One article was about a large game hunting preserve (I think in Upper NY State) of 100,000 acres or so that was a privately owned place and the rich guys came here to hunt.
They hunted 100 deer annually, all bucks. No one would shoot does. That's the way it was (and still is lots of places)
Eventually the quality of the bucks was gone, so they hired a Biologist to help them out. Did some winter aerial surveys, deer counts etc.
Bio guy mandated NO bucks were to be shot, and a large # of does were to be shot. As in 100
Members were not happy but they did as directed since they were paying for the advice.
Did this for a couple years then the Bio guy allowed a small percentage of Mature bucks only to be shot and the rest does
Kept an eye on things and eventually they got some decent bucks back, but were never again a "Buck only" hunt club
Every year a % of doe deer had to be taken to maintain the balance...members finally accepted that does need to be taken.

Fast forward a few years and I am at a "for rent" hunt camp in North central WI. Hunting with an American friend from IL.
We rented a cabin and were assigned an area to hunt deer - bucks only allowed. No does deer ever.
All the deer racks on the wall of the eating area are very small.
2 pts, 3 pts, disfigured points you name it. Nothing decent.

I said to the lady (about 35) cooking the breakfast - "You need to shoot some doe deer"
She said "You're right. I've been telling my dad that for years, but no one will shoot does, and he wont allow it anyway"

Here is a picture of the deer hanging that year when we left (My friend and I did not shoot any deer)

They are all very small racks, all young deer, no older bucks doing the breeding....
Buck to Doe ratio is very important

dge8jEE.jpg
Click to expand...


Thank you for your information and that's the exact reason why I started this post.

I have access and permission to hunt 3 different WMUs and seen lots of deer during hunting and from camera pics as well and basically my group can take either buck or doe (have antlerless tags) but from the data we gathered from the last couple of years we have noticed there were more does than bucks in these 3 WMUs and the quality of the bucks has dropped quite a bit (used to see some nice 10 points and up ) but only seen some decent 8 points and smaller last year.

Besides doing an aerial count is there any other method to figure the buck to doe ratio?

Just want to do our part for the conservation by doing the right thing that is buck or doe and how to determine their ratio accurately?
 
An unhunted buck/doe ratio is not 1:1, bucks are more susceptible to predation, not having the many eyes of a maternal herd and much more so to winterkill.
 
Bigbubba said:
I read an article in Deer & Deer Hunting Magazine about 15-18 years ago about this. Generally this is a very informative magazine, articles are usually game managers and or wildlife biologists managing deer in US states. With long term plans ahead of them vs the flavour of the month the OMNRF goes with.

One article was about a large game hunting preserve (I think in Upper NY State) of 100,000 acres or so that was a privately owned place and the rich guys came here to hunt.
They hunted 100 deer annually, all bucks. No one would shoot does. That's the way it was (and still is lots of places)
Eventually the quality of the bucks was gone, so they hired a Biologist to help them out. Did some winter aerial surveys, deer counts etc.
Bio guy mandated NO bucks were to be shot, and a large # of does were to be shot. As in 100
Members were not happy but they did as directed since they were paying for the advice.
Did this for a couple years then the Bio guy allowed a small percentage of Mature bucks only to be shot and the rest does
Kept an eye on things and eventually they got some decent bucks back, but were never again a "Buck only" hunt club
Every year a % of doe deer had to be taken to maintain the balance...members finally accepted that does need to be taken.

Fast forward a few years and I am at a "for rent" hunt camp in North central WI. Hunting with an American friend from IL.
We rented a cabin and were assigned an area to hunt deer - bucks only allowed. No does deer ever.
All the deer racks on the wall of the eating area are very small.
2 pts, 3 pts, disfigured points you name it. Nothing decent.

I said to the lady (about 35) cooking the breakfast - "You need to shoot some doe deer"
She said "You're right. I've been telling my dad that for years, but no one will shoot does, and he wont allow it anyway"

Here is a picture of the deer hanging that year when we left (My friend and I did not shoot any deer)

They are all very small racks, all young deer, no older bucks doing the breeding....
Buck to Doe ratio is very important

dge8jEE.jpg
Click to expand...

this has been done over a century in most european countries. despite more hunting pressure on cervids the average trophy quality has increased everywhere. they know a little about it.

but as gatehouse mentionned predator and snow or winter impact the herd in a whole.
 
One study out of the USA said you should be shooting 3 does per hundred acres to have a healthy buck herd:)
 
that's an interesting recommendation, but not so useful further north. USA deer densities are nothing at all like most of Canada. Their habitat can support 2-4x as many deer per hundred acres. But it's still a good idea to take some does along with the buck harvest.
 
A lot depends on the actual deer density to start with. Where I first started deer hunting in 1980 we felt we had a good hunt if we found some tracks or actually saw a deer.
I would bet deer density per 100 acres was probably 3 or less in total. Then the MNR introduced antlered only tags (erroneously called buck tags) and the deer herd slowly rebounded. Mostly because hunters had to be more careful what they shot. It had to be an antlered deer with a 3" or longer antler on at least one side.

When the chosen method of hunting was driving the bush, the does and fawns were the first to make a break for it and thus quite often the ones that got shot.
"Antlered only" tags stopped a lot of that. Remembering of course my experience is ONT where "party hunting" is allowed.

After a few years the MNR started to issue small numbers of antlerless tags (erroneously called doe tags) and now the deer herd where I live is quite healthy and more "doe" tags tend to get issued, although I know a lot of guys that will not shoot does. They want a buck or nothing. Also given the habitat I hunt i might see a buck for 5-10 seconds and a better make my mind up quick. Its not like looking at one from 300 yds for 20 min trying to decide if you are shooting or not.

However we have had some very mild winters, this last one being another mild one. That helps a lot.
Also not having snow conditions that allow the dogs to run on top when the deer are breaking through.

Winter, predation, food availability and hunting pressure all play a role.

To address hunting pressure, in 1980 I would always see other hunters while hunting public or private land. Now It is rare for me to see another hunter as I hunt private land and also because the trespass laws changed and the resulted in fewer hunters, as did the interest rate problem of 1981-2-3 when a lot of farmers lost their land which was bought up by city folk who have now posted it.

Having too many does (or too few bucks, take your pick) creates a weaker herd. The does want to be bred, it is mother nature calling. If there are not enough dominant bucks around to get the job done, the does will settle for a weaker non dominant or younger buck. Having less than the best males do the breeding creates a generically inferior deer population. This is clearly the case with the picture of the deer I posted.

It can also result in a "2nd rut" where the does are getting bred later in the year which means their fawns will be born later the next year and not necessarily will they be big enough to get through a winter. I have seen fawns with spots while hunting in Nov. Obviously a late birth.

There are many factors in play with regards to a healthy deer herd, and for sure the correct buck/doe ratio is one of them.
IMHO that would be about 1/3 or a touch higher.
 
Bigbubba said:
A lot depends on the actual deer density to start with. Where I first started deer hunting in 1980 we felt we had a good hunt if we found some tracks or actually saw a deer.
I would bet deer density per 100 acres was probably 3 or less in total. Then the MNR introduced antlered only tags (erroneously called buck tags) and the deer herd slowly rebounded. Mostly because hunters had to be more careful what they shot. It had to be an antlered deer with a 3" or longer antler on at least one side.

When the chosen method of hunting was driving the bush, the does and fawns were the first to make a break for it and thus quite often the ones that got shot.
"Antlered only" tags stopped a lot of that. Remembering of course my experience is ONT where "party hunting" is allowed.

After a few years the MNR started to issue small numbers of antlerless tags (erroneously called doe tags) and now the deer herd where I live is quite healthy and more "doe" tags tend to get issued, although I know a lot of guys that will not shoot does. They want a buck or nothing. Also given the habitat I hunt i might see a buck for 5-10 seconds and a better make my mind up quick. Its not like looking at one from 300 yds for 20 min trying to decide if you are shooting or not.

However we have had some very mild winters, this last one being another mild one. That helps a lot.
Also not having snow conditions that allow the dogs to run on top when the deer are breaking through.

Winter, predation, food availability and hunting pressure all play a role.

To address hunting pressure, in 1980 I would always see other hunters while hunting public or private land. Now It is rare for me to see another hunter as I hunt private land and also because the trespass laws changed and the resulted in fewer hunters, as did the interest rate problem of 1981-2-3 when a lot of farmers lost their land which was bought up by city folk who have now posted it.

Having too many does (or too few bucks, take your pick) creates a weaker herd. The does want to be bred, it is mother nature calling. If there are not enough dominant bucks around to get the job done, the does will settle for a weaker non dominant or younger buck. Having less than the best males do the breeding creates a generically inferior deer population. This is clearly the case with the picture of the deer I posted.

It can also result in a "2nd rut" where the does are getting bred later in the year which means their fawns will be born later the next year and not necessarily will they be big enough to get through a winter. I have seen fawns with spots while hunting in Nov. Obviously a late birth.

There are many factors in play with regards to a healthy deer herd, and for sure the correct buck/doe ratio is one of them.
IMHO that would be about 1/3 or a touch higher.
Click to expand...


Some great info, thanks.

Personally, I think the MNR does a pretty good job of managing the deer herd in ON. The problem being that it is such a big area and their management techniques are sometimes "late" do to hard winters and other things that cannot be predicted.

For the most part, if the MNR is issuing a lot of "doe tags" in certain WMUs people need to be shooting more does.

Good general rule of thumb for the hunter.....if you are seeing a lot of deer, shoot does, if you're not seeing a lot of deer, shoot only bucks.

Unfortunately a lot of old school hunters and uninformed hunters just think shooting bucks only means more deer in the future.
 
When all the human alpha males leave to work or fight the betas fill the gaps, as it were. Underwhelming results, from the females and social points of view. “You left me for that loser?”. “I was in heat and you were gone.”
 
Bigbubba said:
A lot depends on the actual deer density to start with. Where I first started deer hunting in 1980 we felt we had a good hunt if we found some tracks or actually saw a deer.
I would bet deer density per 100 acres was probably 3 or less in total. Then the MNR introduced antlered only tags (erroneously called buck tags) and the deer herd slowly rebounded. Mostly because hunters had to be more careful what they shot. It had to be an antlered deer with a 3" or longer antler on at least one side.

When the chosen method of hunting was driving the bush, the does and fawns were the first to make a break for it and thus quite often the ones that got shot.
"Antlered only" tags stopped a lot of that. Remembering of course my experience is ONT where "party hunting" is allowed.

After a few years the MNR started to issue small numbers of antlerless tags (erroneously called doe tags) and now the deer herd where I live is quite healthy and more "doe" tags tend to get issued, although I know a lot of guys that will not shoot does. They want a buck or nothing. Also given the habitat I hunt i might see a buck for 5-10 seconds and a better make my mind up quick. Its not like looking at one from 300 yds for 20 min trying to decide if you are shooting or not.

However we have had some very mild winters, this last one being another mild one. That helps a lot.
Also not having snow conditions that allow the dogs to run on top when the deer are breaking through.

Winter, predation, food availability and hunting pressure all play a role.

To address hunting pressure, in 1980 I would always see other hunters while hunting public or private land. Now It is rare for me to see another hunter as I hunt private land and also because the trespass laws changed and the resulted in fewer hunters, as did the interest rate problem of 1981-2-3 when a lot of farmers lost their land which was bought up by city folk who have now posted it.

Having too many does (or too few bucks, take your pick) creates a weaker herd. The does want to be bred, it is mother nature calling. If there are not enough dominant bucks around to get the job done, the does will settle for a weaker non dominant or younger buck. Having less than the best males do the breeding creates a generically inferior deer population. This is clearly the case with the picture of the deer I posted.

It can also result in a "2nd rut" where the does are getting bred later in the year which means their fawns will be born later the next year and not necessarily will they be big enough to get through a winter. I have seen fawns with spots while hunting in Nov. Obviously a late birth.

There are many factors in play with regards to a healthy deer herd, and for sure the correct buck/doe ratio is one of them.
IMHO that would be about 1/3 or a touch higher.
Click to expand...

Bang on, here in Southern Ontario, (Muskoka) I have areas with a good healthy population, and areas that you can't even find a track, the areas you can't even find a track at are the ones with the big gangs that come up for the rifle hunt, push the same bush twice a week, constantly complain of not getting doe tags, I have a 500 acre and a 650 acre parcel that I have the only permission to hunt, in these 2 blocks on a evening in a stand i'll see anywear from 3 to 7 deer, usually the typical does and fawns, and young bucks, while holding out for the bigger fellas, these areas have a healthy population according to my observations, (Forestry Tech and 14 years in Forestry) I'd say 5:1 to 4:1 doe to buck ratio's per 150 acres, and have always had that aslong as I've been here, now, 2 years ago a large gang thought they could hunt in one of these blocks, they took I kid you not 17 deer out of it. Completely butchered it, ofcourse they got the not very kind words of the property owners to leave and never reutun, I had to do damage control for myself to explain why I should still be able to hunt thier land responsibly, thankfully they let myself to continue to hunt on the parcel, and didn't let the irresponsible actions of others trickle to me. However the deer herd is still not what it was before the gang came through, I am hoping this spring we have a second year of good births, and I'll be back to what it was, lots of food availible in both parcels, I'd take an estimated guess at 4 coyotes in each parcel, and 3 to 4 bears, 4 to 5 moose,

Areas directly adjascent to these parcels see about 2/3 deer per hundred acres,

if that brings anything into perspective for parcel size and wildlife numbers,

Cheers,
 
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