Forgive me, I'm thinking about sinning - Early Superposed 20

[CoryTheCowboy]

Howdy folks,

Two years ago I bought what is likely the nicest gun I've ever owned, a 1950 26.5" solid rib Superposed 20 gauge. It's first day hunting ever resulted in this bag

8 ducks, 3 Sharptails (in 3 shots out of a single covey) and a Jackrabbit about the size of my dog.

The problem is it's Full/Full. I missed a handful of ducks that morning before realizing I should let my Dad empty his 101 before I even started shooting, and obviously it worked. It's a good thing you can see such a long way in Manitoba because I let those Sharptails get out a good way before I started shooting, and that worked too.

The problem is Manitoba is only 1 week a year for me and the rest of the time my Springer is putting Ruffed Grouse up at my feet and by 25 yards they're gone in the buckbrush and trees. My shooting with the little gun last year was miserable. I took it out opening morning for ducks and was missing feet down ducks in the decoys and the only birds I managed to get were two geese that were skirting the decoys. Most of my upland shooting resulted in clean misses or horribly mangled birds. I tried some handloaded spreader loads and while they were a bit better, it still wasn't a great solution.

So I'm considering having the chokes opened. In my Citori for ducks I screwed in a Skt1/Skt2 3 years ago and I've never changed them. They work for me as far as I care to shoot ducks and geese and works dandy on my grouse hunts, it's just not as handy as I'd like my upland gun to be. Now if the Super would've came to me with Skt1/Skt2 I would've been tickled pink and I wouldn't be typing this thread, but there's a nagging part of me that thinks opening the gun to that would be a mistake. I feel like IC/Mod would be a good compromise? I've also seen a lot of guns that are IC/Full and that would probably work for me as well, I'm just thinking if I've got to mail it somewhere and open up one barrel, I might as well get both done and be happy. I know Briley/Lawry's does screw in Thinwalls, but I just don't want to put that kind of money into the gun. It's main use is a upland gun with maybe a trip or two on a nice day duck hunting.

Any thoughts? Opinions? A choke combination I haven't thought of? I've been off and on thinking about just selling it and buying a Citori 20 gauge, but I really like this gun...it's just too tight for my uses.

Thanks,

Cory

 

[gunrunner100]

Cory:
First off, beautiful little gun and that dog of yours is a sweetheart!
I'd send it to get screw-ins. That way you can use it in whichever configuration your hunt demands.

 

[saskbooknut]

You have a nice 20 gauge Superposed.
Altering the chokes to make it useful to you makes sense.
You are not exactly painting over the Mona Lisa.
The gun with Sk1/Sk2 or IC/Mod would not be hugely devalued. It would be more useful to most prospective buyers.
Your gun, your choice.

 

[Ol' Flinter]

Are you shooting waterfowl with steel shot or something else like Bi? The full chokes may be blowing patterns if using steel, which is probably not good for a Super of that vintage anyway. If a competent gunsmith could open those barrels to IC and MOD (about .005"-.010" and .015-.020" constriction) for lead shot then with steel or whatever else you could expect somewhat tighter pattern results like MOD and FULL : a good combo for waterfowl and versatile for everything else. Before target loads used plastic wads, a SKEET choke would have been very close to .005" constriction so even .005" and .010' chokes would probably do what you want to achieve.
I love hunting pix with dirty/wet dogs! Congrats!

 

[Falconflyer]

Lovely gun and dog!

I certainly wouldn't be putting steel through that gun while choked full and full, they often end up with bulged barrels from it. I'd also refrain from opening it up to skeet/skeet and would prefer IC/Mod. Basically if you miss with Ic then your going to miss with skeet too but leaving some constriction gives you options for longer shots and the Ic/Mod chokes are a pretty good compromise for most shots.

 

[kamlooky]

Spend the $$$ on the Brileys.
Better options for you and if you decide to sell it should be worth
more than with the altered choke modifications.

Great photos.

 

[Ashcroft]

It seems a shame to alter a gun that has survived unmolested for 70+ years, but I understand your frustration. You love the gun but it's just the wrong chokes for most of your hunting. I've been down this path with Superposed 20's- a couple of times. These early Lightning 20 ga. guns are quite scarce and unaltered ones are scarcer.
The perfect solution would be to find another with the choking that you want (typically M + IC or SKT and SKT) and then either sell this one or keep it for specific longer range hunts. The fly in the ointment here is as above, they are scarce and you might wait years to find the combination you want.
If you have it opened up it will still only be suitable for the type of hunting it is now choked for, see above. You won't have solved anything, just changed the problem. The versatility you would prefer still isn't there. However if you stay within reasonable all round constrictions such as M + IC or IM + IC you shouldn't negatively affect the value of the gun and may even enhance the value by the cost of the work.
Browning Superposeds have thin barrels ( one of the reasons they handle so well) and not all are suitable for screw in chokes, but as yours is M+ F it very well could be (Thicker walls at the muzzle). IF it is thick enough it will require thin wall choke tubes, pretty well limiting you to the Briley Thinwall option. Great chokes, great results BUT very expensive. They don't licence their system to other gunsmiths, the barrels must be sent to Briley in the US for them to do the work. This work, plus a set of five choke tubes, plus shipping both ways, plus all the taxes and then add in our miserable exchange rate and you will not get much back from $1000. You will never get even close to this as added value if and when you sell the gun but it may be worth it to you.
An added note about choke constrictions - as you get down in gauge ( smaller hole) the amount of constriction to get specific results also decreases. For example, a .020" choke constriction will yield a tighter pattern in a 20 gauge than in a 12 gauge. If you go the choke opening route pick a really good gunsmith that specializes in shotguns and understands chokes. This will also ensure that your altered gun will print both barrels to the same point of impact.
Happy dog, happy hunter. Great pictures, thanks.

 

[saskbooknut]

I cannot think of anything that I would shoot with a 20 gauge Superposed that couldn't be done with IC/Mod.
That is versatile to me.
Ashcroft nails the issues.

 

[cosmic]

Hmm - We all have opinions. For me, a 20 g RKLT gun, in decent shape, would be modestly collectible. A 12 g, not so much... Altering the chokes may increase its utility, but may affect collectability? Faced with issues like this in the past, I chose to buy another shotgun, and keep the existing one as well. You could pick up a 3 inch steel compatible gun with chokes for about 1 K$.

 

[leveractionjunkie]

You mentioned that you had toyed with spreader loads. What did you use for a disruptor? How much did they open your pattern up? If you’re willing use something like a bismuth for your waterfowling you may be able to solve your upland issues with further testing of spreader loads.

 

[Grouse Man]

If you're shooting ducks over decoys, then Imp Cyl and a Light Mod would be ideal for everything you have in mind.

Opening up chokes isn't a sin at all. I wouldn't bother with choke tubes, just have them honed.

 

[canvasback]

Just helped a friend who is a newbie to guns pick up a late 1950s 20 gauge SP choked skeet/skeet. Love those guns. I’d open them up to something like IC and Mod if I were in your position. Or buy a second one. But then I ALWAYS think the solution to a gun not quite being perfect is to buy another one.

 

[CoryTheCowboy]

Cory:
First off, beautiful little gun and that dog of yours is a sweetheart!
I'd send it to get screw-ins. That way you can use it in whichever configuration your hunt demands.

You know, sometimes I think it isn't fair that he got brains and looks and I got...uhhh...a Superposed I guess

Now I had to have Townes help me with the math, but it looks like for screw-ins I'm up over $850 pretty quick and I don't have that to put into this gun.

You have a nice 20 gauge Superposed.
Altering the chokes to make it useful to you makes sense.
You are not exactly painting over the Mona Lisa.
The gun with Sk1/Sk2 or IC/Mod would not be hugely devalued. It would be more useful to most prospective buyers.
Your gun, your choice.

That's mostly where my mind is. It's a nice gun, but it's not like I'm chopping down a Purdey that costs as much as my house. It mostly just seems goofy to me to have a stackbarrel with both barrels choked the same.

Are you shooting waterfowl with steel shot or something else like Bi? The full chokes may be blowing patterns if using steel, which is probably not good for a Super of that vintage anyway. If a competent gunsmith could open those barrels to IC and MOD (about .005"-.010" and .015-.020" constriction) for lead shot then with steel or whatever else you could expect somewhat tighter pattern results like MOD and FULL : a good combo for waterfowl and versatile for everything else. Before target loads used plastic wads, a SKEET choke would have been very close to .005" constriction so even .005" and .010' chokes would probably do what you want to achieve.
I love hunting pix with dirty/wet dogs! Congrats!

Sorry, I should've mentioned I wasn't using steel. I shot Kent TM in Manitoba and handloaded bismuth locally for waterfowl, and obviously lead for upland.

Lovely gun and dog!

I certainly wouldn't be putting steel through that gun while choked full and full, they often end up with bulged barrels from it. I'd also refrain from opening it up to skeet/skeet and would prefer IC/Mod. Basically if you miss with Ic then your going to miss with skeet too but leaving some constriction gives you options for longer shots and the Ic/Mod chokes are a pretty good compromise for most shots.

I agree and think that IC/Mod is a much more versatile choke combination.

It seems a shame to alter a gun that has survived unmolested for 70+ years, but I understand your frustration. You love the gun but it's just the wrong chokes for most of your hunting. I've been down this path with Superposed 20's- a couple of times. These early Lightning 20 ga. guns are quite scarce and unaltered ones are scarcer.
The perfect solution would be to find another with the choking that you want (typically M + IC or SKT and SKT) and then either sell this one or keep it for specific longer range hunts. The fly in the ointment here is as above, they are scarce and you might wait years to find the combination you want.
If you have it opened up it will still only be suitable for the type of hunting it is now choked for, see above. You won't have solved anything, just changed the problem. The versatility you would prefer still isn't there. However if you stay within reasonable all round constrictions such as M + IC or IM + IC you shouldn't negatively affect the value of the gun and may even enhance the value by the cost of the work.
Browning Superposeds have thin barrels ( one of the reasons they handle so well) and not all are suitable for screw in chokes, but as yours is M+ F it very well could be (Thicker walls at the muzzle). IF it is thick enough it will require thin wall choke tubes, pretty well limiting you to the Briley Thinwall option. Great chokes, great results BUT very expensive. They don't licence their system to other gunsmiths, the barrels must be sent to Briley in the US for them to do the work. This work, plus a set of five choke tubes, plus shipping both ways, plus all the taxes and then add in our miserable exchange rate and you will not get much back from $1000. You will never get even close to this as added value if and when you sell the gun but it may be worth it to you.
An added note about choke constrictions - as you get down in gauge ( smaller hole) the amount of constriction to get specific results also decreases. For example, a .020" choke constriction will yield a tighter pattern in a 20 gauge than in a 12 gauge. If you go the choke opening route pick a really good gunsmith that specializes in shotguns and understands chokes. This will also ensure that your altered gun will print both barrels to the same point of impact.
Happy dog, happy hunter. Great pictures, thanks.

And that's, to steal your phrase, the fly in the ointment. It's survived this long as it came from Belgium, but it's much too nice of a gun to just sit in the rack and watch the seasons pass through the windows. I also haven't seen a Super 20 even in the same ballpark pricewise as I paid for this one. I bought the gun over the phone and when asking for a serial to date it the employee told me "guns this old don't have serial numbers" so when I asked for the chokes (knowing the asterisk system used) and he replied right away with "Full and Full", I just assumed he was in over his head and didn't want to admit it. You're right on the price quote, and I didn't pay much more than that for the gun.

I cannot think of anything that I would shoot with a 20 gauge Superposed that couldn't be done with IC/Mod.
That is versatile to me.
Ashcroft nails the issues.

That's pretty much where my mind is now. I open the chokes to IC/MOD and I have a gun that'll do anything I want a 20 Superposed to do

Hmm - We all have opinions. For me, a 20 g RKLT gun, in decent shape, would be modestly collectible. A 12 g, not so much... Altering the chokes may increase its utility, but may affect collectability? Faced with issues like this in the past, I chose to buy another shotgun, and keep the existing one as well. You could pick up a 3 inch steel compatible gun with chokes for about 1 K$.

I'm not entirely too worried about collectability as usually once I find something I like, I stick with it. I generally shoot something a fall or two before doing any kind of drastic modification to it and then weigh my options, which is what I'm trying to do now. I thought about leaving this one as is, but there's no sense keeping a gun that I might shoot at Sharptails one or two days a year...that's just not fair to the gun

You mentioned that you had toyed with spreader loads. What did you use for a disruptor? How much did they open your pattern up? If you’re willing use something like a bismuth for your waterfowling you may be able to solve your upland issues with further testing of spreader loads.

I used BPI Dispersor-X wads. They did their job and opened the pattern up, but it was still very tight.

If you're shooting ducks over decoys, then Imp Cyl and a Light Mod would be ideal for everything you have in mind.

Opening up chokes isn't a sin at all. I wouldn't bother with choke tubes, just have them honed.

Thanks for the advice, that's the way I'm leaning

Just helped a friend who is a newbie to guns pick up a late 1950s 20 gauge SP choked skeet/skeet. Love those guns. I’d open them up to something like IC and Mod if I were in your position. Or buy a second one. But then I ALWAYS think the solution to a gun not quite being perfect is to buy another one.

In an ideal world, I'd find another set of IC/MOD barrels...but I feel like that's quite the reach

Since most of you agreed that opening the chokes up isn't going to damn me to hell, anyone who you'd recommend to do the work?

Thank you all for your advice and thoughts,

Cory

 

[Falconflyer]

I think that if your a collector who plans on selling at some point in the future then altering the chokes may not be worth it but for someone who intends to keep and use the gun then opening up a bit is not a concern if it makes the gun more usable. I'd think differently if you were considering malicious damage to the gun such as barrel porting but this is not the case.

 

[the spank]

Nothing sinful about making the gun more versatile. Given though that Browning says on their website that steel shotshells should not be used in their guns made before the 80's I'd be inclined to invest in non-toxic shot of a type made for use in older guns.

 

[canvasback]

Since most of you agreed that opening the chokes up isn't going to damn me to hell, anyone who you'd recommend to do the work?

My first choice for a person I would use to open the chokes.....Stelios Chrysochou at SC Gunworks in Keswick.

 

[cosmic]

Might want to lengthen the forcing cones at the same time, if your intent is to shoot steel shot. See Guntech's sticky on the subject.

 

[madtrapper143]

IIRC the forcing cones in early FN Superposed guns would be best left alone. There is likely not enough barrel wall thickness to do it safely. I don't think the OP has any intentions of running steel in this gun anyways. Factory steel loads in 2 3/4" 20 bore mostly are ineffective for most water fowling. I would go FULL in the top barrel and IMP CYL in the bottom. Set the trigger to trip the bottom barrel first. The follow up shot with #6 shot and FULL would bash through a lot of cover to get to a bird making distance after the first shot. This is just my opinion and I thought I would get in on the idea list. Benefit of my idea is only having to ream one barrel. If it does not work as hoped for then ream the other. Bored FULL and IMP CYL would still make it suitable for Sharptails over the prairie grass.

regards,
Darryl

 

[the spank]

IIRC the forcing cones in early FN Superposed guns would be best left alone. There is likely not enough barrel wall thickness to do it safely. I don't think the OP has any intentions of running steel in this gun anyways. Factory steel loads in 2 3/4" 20 bore mostly are ineffective for most water fowling. I would go FULL in the top barrel and IMP CYL in the bottom. Set the trigger to trip the bottom barrel first. The follow up shot with #6 shot and FULL would bash through a lot of cover to get to a bird making distance after the first shot. This is just my opinion and I thought I would get in on the idea list. Benefit of my idea is only having to ream one barrel. If it does not work as hoped for then ream the other. Bored FULL and IMP CYL would still make it suitable for Sharptails over the prairie grass.


regards,
Darryl

I've read some questionable statements on this site over the years and this one ranks in the top 10!! I'd suggest you spend some time on a skeet range and hone your shooting skills before making such a bold uneducated statement. I shoot nothing but a 20 for waterfowl including spring snow geese and shoot ducks and geese both running alot of 2 3/4" STEEL SHOT ammo and in my experience(and I have LOTS) I'll take the 20 over a 12 for waterfowl any day!!

 

[medvedqc]

Just helped a friend who is a newbie to guns pick up a late 1950s 20 gauge SP choked skeet/skeet. Love those guns. I’d open them up to something like IC and Mod if I were in your position. Or buy a second one. But then I ALWAYS think the solution to a gun not quite being perfect is to buy another one.

best advice ever and valid for any kind of guns ....