Ethical limits of 20GA Sabots

[vpsalin]

Where is the ethical limit of 20GA Sabots? I know most sabot projectiles are targeted towards whitetails but really the ballistics seem to me to be identical to high-end muzzle-loader loads. At what point does the 20GA Sabot gun become not enough gun? Will a guide frown down upon you bringing 20GA to Bison, Grizzly, Moose...hunt? Why are muzzleloaders ok when no 20GA guns are seen in sight?

 

[Ashcroft]

Never used sabots, but 20 gauge slugs measure approximately .630 inches or 60 calibre and they launch at about the same velocity as a black powder muzzle loader bullet. Both are normally made of pure soft lead and if near the same diameter and weight the muzzle ballistics would be the same, ballistics don't discriminate , they don't care if you use a paper, brass, plastic or no cartridge case. I see no reason why a 20 gauge slug would be any different than a 63 caliber muzzle loader. I have had fine success on moose with a .54 muzzle loader, never tried shotgun slugs because they aren't legal for moose, grizzly ( when we could shoot them) bison and a few others in BC. I've hunted grizzly, I wouldn't use a single shot muzzle loader nor a single shot shotgun for them but I would trust a double in a big enough calibre.
As far as I know the biggest difference with the sabot is smaller diameter coupled with lighter weight and faster and larger expansion. The weight and expansion factors would tend to make sabots at a disadvantage for penetration on large beasties compared to slugs I would think.

 

[vpsalin]

The weight and expansion factors would tend to make sabots at a disadvantage for penetration on large beasties compared to slugs I would think.

Not if you factor in monolithic copper projectiles in my opinion....

 

[MiG25]

Not legal in BC. Suppose one could test it in court if a gun designed with a rifled barrel is actually a shotgun.

 

[dilly]

I don’t think 20ga slugs measure up to a really good muzzle loader bullet. Not as accurate either.

 

[rifleman762]

Not legal in BC. Suppose one could test it in court if a gun designed with a rifled barrel is actually a shotgun.

But if you got it classified as a rifle for hunting purposes, the deer hunters in the southern "shotgun only" areas would be very angry with you. ;-)

 

[MiG25]

But if you got it classified as a rifle for hunting purposes, the deer hunters in the southern "shotgun only" areas would be very angry with you. ;-)

A BC Court decision isn't binding on Iowa et al.

 

[rifleman762]

A BC Court decision isn't binding on Iowa et al.

I meant southern BC. There's a spot I hunted quite a bit near Grand Forks that's shotgun only. The season is open for rifle but the areas closer to town don't allow discharge of rifles.

 

[vpsalin]

We're talking 20GA sabots here, not foster slugs in case some commentors had misunderstood the topic..

 

[MiG25]

I meant southern BC. There's a spot I hunted quite a bit near Grand Forks that's shotgun only. The season is open for rifle but the areas closer to town don't allow discharge of rifles.

Is this area sandwiched between Grand Forks and the USA Boundary what you are referring to?

 

[wasa]

My $0.02 worth.... if the projectiles has "sufficient" energy at the range I'm shooting it, and it's legal at my location, then I'm fine with it. But that being said, it does depend on the projectile. I have hunted deer with CF rifle, smoothbore shotgun (slugs), rifled shotgun, and muzzle loaders (and crossbow, and compound bow but lets ignore archery).

I'm all for the 1000 ft/lb (or close enough... 900+). But, here in Ontario, someone could use a 223 Remington for deer. I wouldn't. It may have 1000 ft/lb of energy, but a 55gr or 62gr projectile at 3000 ft/s (or whatever) may not (IMHO) provide sufficient expansion/penetration so I personally think it would be unethical to shoot a deer with one. Same as 220 Swift or other 22 caliber centerfires. Legal (in Ontario). But I wouldn't. 243 Winchester? With 100gr soft point projectile no problem. Maybe not moose, but legal here and I'm sure I have read on CGN many people using 243 on moose (hey, it's almost 2000 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle).

I also feel that it is unethical to shoot large game (deer, etc) with a FMJ projectile. AFAIK, it is legal to do so in Ontario. I never would.

So, 20g sabot for deer, moose, bear? All legal in Ontario and I would do so. At 300 yards? Nope. At 50 yards? For sure.

 

[vpsalin]

I'm thinking a 20 GA Sabot is about 150-175 yard affair, similar to muzzleloader for that matter.

 

[Brutus]

Winchester Gold Supreme sabot 20 gauge 2 3/4 use a .45 bullet 260 grains at around 1900 fps.
That 454 Casull territory from a rifled barrel.

 

[vpsalin]

Winchester Gold Supreme sabot 20 gauge 2 3/4 use a .45 bullet 260 grains at around 1900 fps.
That 454 Casull territory from a rifled barrel.

Well said, they have an elk and Brown bear on the box, but that's not the case for 20GA sabots

 

[B]

My handloads push a 240grn bullet over 1800fps from a 5" revolver barrel. The .454 is quite a ways ahead of 20ga sabot slugs. Winchester does not sell proper .454, even that "premium" stuff is watered down.

 

[mbogo3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6ZBruKXGI

 

[Big bore dinosaur]

Shot 10 inch of wet phone books at 200,
Barnes exited.never recovered.

 

[struff55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6ZBruKXGI

I was just about to post this video .

 

[TK-Hryciuk]

My $0.02 worth.... if the projectiles has "sufficient" energy at the range I'm shooting it, and it's legal at my location, then I'm fine with it. But that being said, it does depend on the projectile. I have hunted deer with CF rifle, smoothbore shotgun (slugs), rifled shotgun, and muzzle loaders (and crossbow, and compound bow but lets ignore archery).

I'm all for the 1000 ft/lb (or close enough... 900+). But, here in Ontario, someone could use a 223 Remington for deer. I wouldn't. It may have 1000 ft/lb of energy, but a 55gr or 62gr projectile at 3000 ft/s (or whatever) may not (IMHO) provide sufficient expansion/penetration so I personally think it would be unethical to shoot a deer with one. Same as 220 Swift or other 22 caliber centerfires. Legal (in Ontario). But I wouldn't. 243 Winchester? With 100gr soft point projectile no problem. Maybe not moose, but legal here and I'm sure I have read on CGN many people using 243 on moose (hey, it's almost 2000 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle).

I also feel that it is unethical to shoot large game (deer, etc) with a FMJ projectile. AFAIK, it is legal to do so in Ontario. I never would.

So, 20g sabot for deer, moose, bear? All legal in Ontario and I would do so. At 300 yards? Nope. At 50 yards? For sure.

I have hunted 15 or so whitetails with .223 remington in both 55 and 62gr. Every animal has expired within 40 yards I have never had to chase one or track it very far. There is this huge misconception that you need big calibers to take down anything. Bullet construction and shot placement are far more important than caliber. You may find it unethical to use a .22CF but my experience has shown me that it is more than adequate for the ranges you see in Manitoba.

 

[wasa]

I have hunted 15 or so whitetails with .223 remington in both 55 and 62gr. Every animal has expired within 40 yards I have never had to chase one or track it very far. There is this huge misconception that you need big calibers to take down anything. Bullet construction and shot placement are far more important than caliber. You may find it unethical to use a .22CF but my experience has shown me that it is more than adequate for the ranges you see in Manitoba.

All fair points. 100% agree with shot placement and bullet construction are more important than caliber. I'm probably biased by my dad and grandfather. Well, not probably, I am. Read on CGN that 243 was the minimum legal requirement for deer in the UK, and I know that some people (not me) feel that a 243 is not sufficient for deer or bear. But as you say, many people in Canada and the USA use 223 for deer. Me personally, I would use a 20g sabot through a rifled shotgun before I would use a 223, but that is my preference and my comfort level. I'd rather use 300 Savage or 303 British than a 20g sabot also.

Cheers!