9mm compared to buckshot for deer hunting - thoughts?

Gatehouse said:
I answered your question regarding buckshot vs 9mm in post#22.
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I appreciated that post, with your contribution regarding having shot several bears with buckshot, though you offered nothing in the way of specific data except to indicate closer is better if that is one's choice of firearm and shell load. Which... seems to reiterate what I said in post #1, regarding a very small distance between shooter and game animal for buckshot to be adequate. There was a symphony conductor up in Prince George who hunted many a black bear, had a reputation for his excellent bear sausages. He used an airgun, a Samyang in .45" if memory serves, for at least one such hunt on a 200 to 300lb bear. Heart shot. Didn't seem advisable to me at the time (8 or 9 years ago I think) and still doesn't. A single shot PCP rifle like that seems a very poor choice, though I suppose he may have had a backup rifle handy in case the animal decided not only not to die immediately, but also to make a hash of its assailant. Gord wasn't in the best physical condition, I doubt he could have outrun a wounded bear.

Gatehouse said:
But people should hunt with what they like, so take your 9mm if it pleases you. You might want to get some practical first hand experience with the performance of different firearm platforms and ammunition performance in actual media so you can make an informed decision that isn’t based on other people’s YouTube videos.
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Working on it, thanks. As I said. Going to do field testing. Keeping an eye open for a rifle which suits me, chambered in a more potent cartridge. Still not the point of this thread.
 
GerardSamija said:
Wow. Putting the above together with what you said in your TNW ASR review video about not being a particularly good shooter, while shooting 4MOA to 5MOA groups from a full rifle rest... I worry a bit for any game you may be hunting. Wounding seems altogether too likely with what seems a rather lax attitude about accuracy, depending more on luck from year to year, hunt to hunt, over training for a higher level of skill as a shooter. My ASR is a heck of a lot more accurate than that, from a bipod. Never put it in a rifle rest, as I don't see the relevance of such shooting. Any gun I have not delivering 2MOA or better just isn't interesting to me so I won't own it long, certainly wouldn't use it on game of any size.
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Firsty. I said that i wasnt a perfect shooter. I can however still produce sub moa patterns with a bolt action. So its safe to say that 90% of that 4-5moa was the ASR and the particular ammo i was feeding it. I invite u to post a video of ur ASR producing 5shot 2moa groups at 100m...

Secondly. Accuracy is relative, especially for hunting. My Fabarm STF 12 technically only patterns slugs at 6moa. Barely practical for 100m. But when considering the size of a deers kill zone... the Fabarm is deadly accurate for ranges under that. The accuracy dictates your effective range.

Thirdly. Luck plays a huge part in hunting. Not regarding the shots, but rather being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time...

And finally... apparently ive killed more deer then u. So you can talk all the smack u want, and try ur best at some more pathetic attempts to belittle me.... BUT ultimately I am talking from years of direct experience and a freezer full of deer meat... where as u are only theorizing and speculating. Like a child u asked on an online forum for peoples thoughts on hunting with either of these to methods. People expressed legitimate concern regarding the lethality of 9mm on deer. And now ur whining about it. If ur mind is so made up already then why did u pose this question to begin with ? I tried not to be rude with u in the past. But now f it.
 
GerardSamija said:
Wow. Putting the above together with what you said in your TNW ASR review video about not being a particularly good shooter, while shooting 4MOA to 5MOA groups from a full rifle rest... I worry a bit for any game you may be hunting. Wounding seems altogether too likely with what seems a rather lax attitude about accuracy, depending more on luck from year to year, hunt to hunt, over training for a higher level of skill as a shooter. My ASR is a heck of a lot more accurate than that, from a bipod. Never put it in a rifle rest, as I don't see the relevance of such shooting. Any gun I have not delivering 2MOA or better just isn't interesting to me so I won't own it long, certainly wouldn't use it on game of any size.
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You constantly contradict yourself in this thread, this is one more example.

Here is what you said in your first post:

Seems to me that if one can consistently shoot 2" groups at 50 yards, hunting deer with a 9mm carbine is perfectly reasonable at similar distances.
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In your first post a 4 MOA gun is fine for you to take hunting. Now you worry about game hunted with a 4 MOA rifle and anything that won't produce 2 MOA is no good to you.

You have many contradicting thoughts on this thread. Maybe hunting isn't a good fit for you.
 
Well, I am late to the party here on this one, but I guess I can offer a fair amount of real world experience with shooting deer with a 9mm out of a pistol as well as deer shot with buckshot. The bottom line is that buckshot ALWAYS makes more of an impression on the deer - even when I have used 9mm at point blank range. 9mm on deer is anemic at best and even under the absolute best conditions with the absolute best 9mm loading - it is sketchy. Even the crappy low recoil 9 pellet buck that I am required to use has dropped deer rather effectively almost every time I have had to use it. Now, throw 3" mag 000 buckshot and the contest is even more clear. Back in the day when we were issued Imperial extra long range SSG buck, I dropped a number of problematic bears with one shot kills from close range out to over 30 meters. I would have never attempted such foolishness with a 9mm - out of a pistol or even a carbine - no matter what the book claimed the energy levels to be. Just some real-world experience.
 
Speaking of 3" Magnum 000 buck, I mentioned in the other thread that my Browning 3" magnum Auto-5 will keep at least 6 pellets in an 8" circle at 50 yards. That would seem to guarantee an effective double lung shot. I'm not a buckshot hunter, and would only consider using the shotgun under very specific conditions, but I was very surprised and pleased with the results. Did not expect groupings like that at that range.
I think that while a 9mm round might well kill a deer (not speculating about how efficiently) choosing to use one indicates a lack of respect for the animal. Too much chance of a deer being struck and lost. And tracking down a wounded critter is something that hasn't been mentioned yet.
 
Gatehouse said:
You constantly contradict yourself in this thread, this is one more example.
Here is what you said in your first post:

In your first post a 4 MOA gun is fine for you to take hunting. Now you worry about game hunted with a 4 MOA rifle and anything that won't produce 2 MOA is no good to you.

You have many contradicting thoughts on this thread. Maybe hunting isn't a good fit for you.
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Hm. Here's what I actually said in that first post:

GerardSamija said:
Seems to me that if one can consistently shoot 2" groups at 50 yards, hunting deer with a 9mm carbine is perfectly reasonable at similar distances.
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Did I say 'a 4MOA gun is fine' or did I say 'if one can shoot 4MOA'? Are they the same thing, in your mind? What you're asserting is that I was talking about a 4MOA gun. What I was saying, rather clearly it seems on looking at it again, was regarding one's ability with a given gun to shoot a 4MOA group consistently. I was talking about the combination of gun and shooter, the resulting offhand accuracy potential brought to the application of hunting deer. If this is the sort of 'contradicting thoughts' you have listed in your mind, perhaps take a closer look at that list, then let me know what else you're finding to be self-contradictory or inconsistent.

saskcop said:
Well, I am late to the party here on this one, but I guess I can offer a fair amount of real world experience with shooting deer with a 9mm out of a pistol as well as deer shot with buckshot. The bottom line is that buckshot ALWAYS makes more of an impression on the deer - even when I have used 9mm at point blank range. 9mm on deer is anemic at best and even under the absolute best conditions with the absolute best 9mm loading - it is sketchy. Even the crappy low recoil 9 pellet buck that I am required to use has dropped deer rather effectively almost every time I have had to use it. Now, throw 3" mag 000 buckshot and the contest is even more clear. Back in the day when we were issued Imperial extra long range SSG buck, I dropped a number of problematic bears with one shot kills from close range out to over 30 meters. I would have never attempted such foolishness with a 9mm - out of a pistol or even a carbine - no matter what the book claimed the energy levels to be. Just some real-world experience.
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Thank you so much for this! Excellent contribution, exactly what I was hoping for: legitimate real-world experience with both relevant platforms. This definitely tells me all I need to know and I'll stop thinking about using 9mm for deer, focusing instead on finding the right hunting rifle for me, whatever that might be. There's a lot of esthetic and functional preference type stuff to go into such a decision but I've got lots of time to work that out. And I know there are plenty of more powerful cartridges to choose from so that part's rather easy.

I'd still like to have a better understanding of why, exactly, buckshot seems to remain so popular for this application. The randomness of impact points bothers me. I get it that a number of impacts, even if it's only 2 or 3, adds up the shock and physical damage. But it's almost as if one had a 50MOA rifle which is able to take 9 shots at once. Heck, that's pretty well exactly what it is. Hard to wrap my head around using gun that imprecise, just crossing my fingers and hoping some pellets hit something important. But that's a moot point as far as I'm concerned for actual hunting as I won't be trying a shotgun for the job. Probably settle on a bolt action of some sort, maybe one with a folding stock in 6.5CM or something like that, a rifle where the little hole appears where I've pointed it instead of a bunch of places around that POA, and as often as not making no holes in line with the sights as one gets with buckshot.
 
tiriaq said:
Speaking of 3" Magnum 000 buck, I mentioned in the other thread that my Browning 3" magnum Auto-5 will keep at least 6 pellets in an 8" circle at 50 yards. That would seem to guarantee an effective double lung shot. I'm not a buckshot hunter, and would only consider using the shotgun under very specific conditions, but I was very surprised and pleased with the results. Did not expect groupings like that at that range.
I think that while a 9mm round might well kill a deer (not speculating about how efficiently) choosing to use one indicates a lack of respect for the animal. Too much chance of a deer being struck and lost. And tracking down a wounded critter is something that hasn't been mentioned yet.
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Sounds like an exceptional firearm, definitely a 'keeper'! I've never seen such groups demonstrated from a shotgun of any sort.

It is out of respect for potential prey animals that I started this discussion, long, long before I actually get the paperwork done and go out hunting. I've talked in a couple of places here about my same feeling of respect for animals and concern for their potential suffering even with 'pest' species such as introduced grey squirrels and introduced european rats. Every life has meaning to the animal living it and their family. Every mammal has a consciousness of some significance. I was a vegetarian for decades primarily out of concern for this very aspect of the food chain, with factory/feedlot farming being a primary motivator in my decision at the age of 17 to stop eating meat of any kind. As I'm eating meat now, I buy only grass fed beef, in hopes of at least a somewhat better life for the animal I'm consuming compared to the unnatural grain feeding (and whatever the heck else they cram into feedlot cattle) treatment of mainstream factory animals.

Tracking a wounded deer has been raised at least twice by other members contributing to this thread. Guess you missed it. Certainly a concern I've considered and something I've seen talked about in various writings and films about deer hunting, a rather central theme really, and something one tries to avoid by preparing for a solid shot delivered in a critical area of the deer's body. 'Luck' as Murray suggests plays a role, in terms of actually finding a deer to consider shooting at, but should play as small a role as possible when it comes to actually taking the shot.
 
tiriaq said:
A folding stock is certainly an asset on a deer rifle.
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Not sure if you're taking a poke at me or not... but whatever, my preference is for packable guns, things I can stuff into a backpack primarily to avoid getting other non-hunting hikers upset about there being a big scary gun in their precious wilderness. Keeping the firearm discrete until it becomes relevant in use seems a good idea in terms of politics. The more alarmed hikers we create, the stronger the opposition to gun ownership becomes. I won't try to fool myself into thinking that education, at this point, is going to turn such people into supporters of our right to gun ownership. That horse has left the barn.
 
ThatI would have to see, to believe.

tiriaq said:
Speaking of 3" Magnum 000 buck, I mentioned in the other thread that my Browning 3" magnum Auto-5 will keep at least 6 pellets in an 8" circle at 50 yards. That would seem to guarantee an effective double lung shot. I'm not a buckshot hunter, and would only consider using the shotgun under very specific conditions, but I was very surprised and pleased with the results. Did not expect groupings like that at that range.
I think that while a 9mm round might well kill a deer (not speculating about how efficiently) choosing to use one indicates a lack of respect for the animal. Too much chance of a deer being struck and lost. And tracking down a wounded critter is something that hasn't been mentioned yet.
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In Saskatchewan the DNR prohibited pistol cartridges by length and a few by name a few years ago as pcc’s became more popular,basically anything less than 44mag including.357 by case length and .45 colt by name. But in the same regulation change they allowed.22 cal including.204 ruger for big game because of the popularity of non restricted msr’s.
 
I'm not sure whether the OP is even reading this anymore, but if so, I'll give this final advice:
- buy a common, inexpensive but decent rifle in a common rather than ###y chambering.
- get good optics. You are unlikely to have 20 year old eyes anymore.
- shoot it to get good at it. Not just from a rest, not just in good weather. Practice rapid follow-up shots.
- find someone to take you out. Shooting the deer is the 1% after the 89% that is actually the hunting, and before the 5% that is tracking and 5% that is dealing with the now-deceased deer.
- get out there and do it
 
timandkimandshea said:
ThatI would have to see, to believe.
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I was really surprised myself. It is the only shotgun/buckshot ammunition combination I have ever tried that performed even close to that. Usually a pattern with that many pellets in the central cluster will occur only at much closer distance. I traded for a half dozen packs of these Winchester loads, just out of curiosity. Fired off three packs and realized the combination was special. Tucked the rest away against the day I might need them.
 
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