Lube .22 ammo?
- Thread starter Lead hammer
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Yes some use wax, some are mostly copper, some like SK are completely covered all over, comes off on your hands and is slippery to load mags. but shoot great. Next week I might try a comparison of my own to see what happens. Use various brands and shoot groups stock out of the box, then some lubed and see if anything changes.
There are so many different variables with ammo that any one isn't all that important. How any given round fits in your chamber is likely to play a much larger role. You can take one ammo that shoots 1/2" groups at 50 yards in one gun and put it in another gun and it'll drop 1 of 10 rounds 6" at 50 yards, even though this second gun is also capable of 1/2" groups with the "right" ammo. The more expensive target ammo is certainly more consistent, but it still has to have a good fit in the gun for it to work well. Worrying about whether or not any rounds you buy have good lube isn't much worth your time. If you want consistently accurate rounds you'll have to pony up for it. You get what you pay for. And even then, you still have to find something that is a good fit in the gun.
Been curious about this myself, lots of reports of guys firing a bunch of higher end lubed ammo like SK and lapua(both the same) and the firing what would be considered mediocre ammo and getting good groups for the first 10-15 rounds while the excess lube from the previous ammo is still in the bore and then the groups starting to open up, would be a fun test if you could find some proper lube and take say American eagle 40gr solids and see if they shoot better with or without the added lubrication
The crate of CCI SV I picked up last fall seems a bit more waxy than usual. The other day I had a 10/22 mag freeze up halfway through, the 5th round refusing to rise. I picked at it with a knife tip and it was a bit stubborn, but then jumped up into place. Pulled the round and found it had an uneven lump of wax all over the bullet. Plainly waxed itself to the lower wall of the feed ramp in the magazine. Wouldn't want to lube them more than that, preferably a bit less...
Pretty sure this has been tested many times by many people. Better lube does help. More consistent bullets do help. More consistent powder charges do help. Better powders do help. Better priming compound does help. Better brass helps. And it all has to fit the chamber well. Using a better lube could indeed help a little bit. But is it going to be worth buying crap like CCI SV and spending hours upon hours trying to get all their crappy lube off and then putting your own "better" lube on there when you could simply spend a few more bucks for ammo that's already better in most/all respects, including the lube?
CCI SV, in particular, has a real problem with temperature with regard to its lube. A lot of the silhouette guys I shoot with buy CCI SV and shoot it in matches and practice all the time. They complain about horrible fliers when it is cold out. And it performs mostly ok when it is warm out. When it is cold out you can keep the day's match ammo in a small container and throw some hand warmers in there to try to keep the ammo at least 20 C, or more, and it will shoot just as well as it does when it is actually that warm out. The lube CCI uses is garbage. Also, it is a cheap round that isn't very consistent, even if it had better lube.
You really do get what you pay for. And the price difference rarely justifies hours upon hours of your time spent doing whatever with the rounds to try to improve them. You may not care about spending your time that way, which leans things in another direction. But in most cases, time is money. And as a result, it is usually better just to spend more on the ammo because it won't cost as much to get better stuff as it will to fool around with the cheaper stuff trying to improve it in some way. I've bought and sorted many, many cases of ammo to try to get rid of some fliers, and/or improve performance. It can help a little bit. I even bought the Neal Waltz die for improving the consistency of bullet shape, which was not cheap. It can help a little bit. Still better off buying better ammo. Nobody seems to want to accept that, but that really is the way it is. Wanna buy a Neal Waltz die off me? hehe
CCI SV, in particular, has a real problem with temperature with regard to its lube. A lot of the silhouette guys I shoot with buy CCI SV and shoot it in matches and practice all the time. They complain about horrible fliers when it is cold out. And it performs mostly ok when it is warm out. When it is cold out you can keep the day's match ammo in a small container and throw some hand warmers in there to try to keep the ammo at least 20 C, or more, and it will shoot just as well as it does when it is actually that warm out. The lube CCI uses is garbage. Also, it is a cheap round that isn't very consistent, even if it had better lube.
You really do get what you pay for. And the price difference rarely justifies hours upon hours of your time spent doing whatever with the rounds to try to improve them. You may not care about spending your time that way, which leans things in another direction. But in most cases, time is money. And as a result, it is usually better just to spend more on the ammo because it won't cost as much to get better stuff as it will to fool around with the cheaper stuff trying to improve it in some way. I've bought and sorted many, many cases of ammo to try to get rid of some fliers, and/or improve performance. It can help a little bit. I even bought the Neal Waltz die for improving the consistency of bullet shape, which was not cheap. It can help a little bit. Still better off buying better ammo. Nobody seems to want to accept that, but that really is the way it is. Wanna buy a Neal Waltz die off me? hehe
It's not clear what is meant by "normal" ammo.
In any case, all .22LR ammo is lubed, even copper plated, but not necessarily in the same way or as obviously. Copper plating is generally used on high velocity ammo. It was originally produced as "greaseless" ammo which could be kept in pockets and handled without making a mess. High velocity ammo is not accurate specifically because of its lubrication characteristics, but more because of its quality and purpose. In short, it's not made to be as accurate as match ammo; it's designed as hunting and plinking ammo.
Match ammo is standard velocity and is generally more generously lubricated than high velocity fare. It's been known for over a century that lubricious ammo was more accurate than than "greaseless".
I don't believe he's talking about lubing normal ammo to see if it will give him match grade accuracy you guys, merely seeing if it will help "normal ammo" which also in my mind not being into precision rimfire until this year is what the everyman buys to feed their 10/22, 597 ect ect, federal bulk box, am eagle 400 and 500 round bricks, winchester bulk packs of any type, rem thunder bolts, cci blazers ect ect(normal 22lr ammo)
That's a good point. Extreme spread isn't going to change with lube changing. All a lubrication change would do is shift average velocity up or down, the spread determined by other factors like crimping, powder charge, bullet dimensions... ES with CCI SV is fairly broad, something like 60 to 70fps. That's a big part of a vertical inch of spread at 100 metres. Not a lot one can do about that with lubrication. For my use, SV accuracy is fine. I'm just putting holes in cards, looking for a better group each time. Only hunting I'm doing so far involves airguns, which I've got set up so consistently that a 6fps ES is pushing the comfort envelope, 5 is okay, 4 is better. I like to know where my pellets will land. One less thing to think about when taking down a squirrel or rat. A .22lr is just too primitive by comparison. And a benchrest .22lr for squirrels or rats would be... odd.
Yes so we all know every .22 has it's favorite ammo, we all know bulk Federal is not going to be target grade ammo no matter what you do to it.
I am suggesting that if it's possible to increase normal priced, not high end ammo, that your rifle may tolerate, into better groups without much effort, say a quick spray of some thin lube and shake in a bag.
For example, my sons biathlon rifle shoots ok with CCI Standard ammo, SK Standard plus and SK rifle match both kill it. I buy him SK to use. Just makes me wonder what could be different buy trying a similar lube that SK uses.
What does Lapua use for lube?
Not sure about different lube not helping with ES, I think it could be possible. For my centerfires, I don't neck turn yet, don't weight sort brass, but when I graphite the inside of my case necks I get an increase of accuracy overall. ( you can feel the consistency in the press handle as well. ) So even though my neck tension is still not obviously perfect, from the non turned necks, I see an improvement. I wonder if the run out with rimfire ammo can be helped from use of different lube types. Help in getting the bullet down the tube straighter for example. Sure if primer of powder charge is too different between rounds, you can't fix that part.
I am suggesting that if it's possible to increase normal priced, not high end ammo, that your rifle may tolerate, into better groups without much effort, say a quick spray of some thin lube and shake in a bag.
For example, my sons biathlon rifle shoots ok with CCI Standard ammo, SK Standard plus and SK rifle match both kill it. I buy him SK to use. Just makes me wonder what could be different buy trying a similar lube that SK uses.
What does Lapua use for lube?
Not sure about different lube not helping with ES, I think it could be possible. For my centerfires, I don't neck turn yet, don't weight sort brass, but when I graphite the inside of my case necks I get an increase of accuracy overall. ( you can feel the consistency in the press handle as well. ) So even though my neck tension is still not obviously perfect, from the non turned necks, I see an improvement. I wonder if the run out with rimfire ammo can be helped from use of different lube types. Help in getting the bullet down the tube straighter for example. Sure if primer of powder charge is too different between rounds, you can't fix that part.
It's not a brand or make or variety of ammo that a rifle "likes" or shoots especially well with. It's the lot. Many lots shoot will differently in the same rifle. Every make of match ammo will have lots that shoot well in just about any good rifle. To illustrate, at ammo testing facilities some lots in the testing process are disqualified very quickly because they don't shoot well in the rifle tested.
With regard to your son's rifle shooting better with SK varieties than with CCI SV, the explanation has nothing to do with lube. It's simply that most lots of SK ammo are better quality than most lots of CCI SV, an ammo that doesn't set a high standard for accuracy.
Well, actually, it's both. A chamber that shoots well with Lapua is not as likely to shoot nearly as well with Eley, and vice versa. The shapes of the bullets are too different, and require different dimensions in the chamber in order to shoot well as a result. While you can take 10 lots of any given ammo and possibly find one that shoots much better than the rest, it is also possible that none of it will shoot very well because the fit in the chamber is poor. Lapua likes a 1.5-degree leade, and Eley likes a 2.0-degree leade, to name just one chamber dimension that favours one round over the other. Eley will not shoot as well with a 1.5-degree leade. Something about the shape of the bullet means the round is upset in some manner by the longer leade. Switching to a 2.0-degree leade for Eley yields better performance. The shape of the Lapua gets along better with the 1.5-degree leade, and shows some performance drop-off when using a 2.0-degree leade, though it does get along better with the "worse" leade angle than the Eley does with the one that is worse with it. You can kind of get away with a 2.0-degree leade with Lapua stuff, but can't really get away with a 1.5-degree leade and Eley. The shapes of the bullets agree/disagree with different things. And they both like differing amounts of engraving. The Lapua likes a relatively small amount, and the Eley shoots better with a lot more.
If it doesn't fit your chamber well you can see wildly different results on the paper. I can take one of my silhouette guns and shoot pretty decent groups with it using Eley at 50 yards, about half an inch. Put Lapua stuff in it and it will happily start dropping lots of rounds 6" or more down from your point of aim. But shoot the same Lapua stuff in the other silhouette gun and it, too, shoots around half an inch. There's nothing wrong with the Lapua that would account for it dropping a lot of rounds really, really low. It simply doesn't fit that chamber in that gun at all. The horrible fit is what's responsible for it throwing so many rounds so far down away from the point of aim. Doesn't matter how many different lots I try of the Lapua in that gun, from SK Standard Plus (what used to be Lapua's low rung in the target line) all the way through Center-X, Midas+, and X-Act. It throws shots super low all the time with any of them. X-Act is the most expensive ammo out there, even more than Eley Tenex from the places I buy ammo. It is insanely good stuff. But it doesn't fit that gun's chamber, and consequently doesn't shoot at all. Get 10 lots of any of them, and they'll all do the same thing. Put 10 lots of any of them in the other gun and it will likely shoot better with one of them than the rest, because it fits ok, and one will fit better than the rest and/or have more consistency in other aspects. But it has to fit the chamber, and the better it fits the better it will shoot. (That doesn't mean the fitting as tight as possible, but rather, fitting the best means fitting so as to produce the best results from it.)
i have found in some rifles they prefer a certain type of lube. my anschutz prefers the oilier lube. it will shoot sk and rws that has a similar lube well. i have tried several eley types as well as sv. they will not shoot well. both use a drier type lube. some rifles i own are not that particular and shoot both types. adding a lube would be quite difficult to get better accuracy with any consistency.
Very nice explanation shorty. I have seen a few good videos from Lapua where they test rifles with all the lot numbers to find the one the rifle likes. Then the customer purchases that lot only. I was unable to match my sons last brick of SK standard plus, but I was able to match lots for the last brick of SK Rifle match.
My .17 HMR likes all brands of TNT well. It seems to be more lot specific with v max. The lot I am using with the v max is Federal and it loves it over any of the Hornady I have bought the last few times.
Lots of people spray brass with Hornady one shot or a Lanolin mix and shake it in a bag with good sizing results. I feel you could coat ammo consistently.
My one .22 likes Winchester super speed hp very much, likes CCI mini mag well and also does strangely well with “bucket of bullets.” ( close range of course) I will try wet lubing all of these to see if they do better than the factory lube they come with.
My .17 HMR likes all brands of TNT well. It seems to be more lot specific with v max. The lot I am using with the v max is Federal and it loves it over any of the Hornady I have bought the last few times.
Lots of people spray brass with Hornady one shot or a Lanolin mix and shake it in a bag with good sizing results. I feel you could coat ammo consistently.
My one .22 likes Winchester super speed hp very much, likes CCI mini mag well and also does strangely well with “bucket of bullets.” ( close range of course) I will try wet lubing all of these to see if they do better than the factory lube they come with.
There are two important caveats to the "it's both" claim.
The first is that Lapua or Eley (or other ammo-specific) chambers are only found on custom barrels with specific chambers. Anyone who wants a Lapua or Eley friendly chamber needs to get a custom barrel and have the barrel manufacturer cut that chamber. They aren't available on factory-made rifles.
To elaborate, factory rifles will have a chamber that is made to CIP dimensions or SAAMI dimensions. Chambers on CIP-specification rifles will have chambers no smaller than the minimum dimensions permitted under law. That includes rifles from manufacturers such as Anschutz, Walther, FWB, Bergara, CZ, Tikka, Sako. The length may be longer or shorter on different rifles, but they can't be any shorter than what CIP specs require. CIP specs call for a 5 degree leade and so, too, do SAAMI specs for both Match and Sporting chambers.
The reason why most firearms makers don't put ammo-specific chambers in their rifles is so that shooters can use a variety of match ammos. Even Vudoo, which uses a Lapua-friendly chamber on the V22 custom barrels, says the Ravage V22 chamber is "compatible with the higher quality 22LR Match ammunition". In short, almost anyone with a factory barrel/chamber will find it difficult to see any chamber-based benefit to choosing ammo based on the manufacturer.
The second is that even with a Lapua or Eley specific chamber it's still necessary to test lots of the make of ammo for which the chamber is designed. The use of an ammo-specific chamber doesn't mean that all lots of ammo produced by a certain ammo maker will shoot equally well. No manufacturer promises that a certain chamber will make lot testing unnecessary if only the chamber specific "brand" of ammo is used. It also doesn't preclude Eley from shooting well in a Lapua-friendly chamber or vice versa.
Invariably, the choice of which chamber to use is for many very serious BR shooters based on which ammo maker has the reputation at a given time for producing the best ammo. There was a time, for example, that Eley regularly produced ammo that shot better than Lapua and so the super serious BR shooters who were looking for a new barrel would usually prefer an Eley-friendly chamber. In more recent years, Lapua ammo has improved its reputation at the expense of Eley and so Lapua-friendly chambers, like the Nevius, are favoured.
