1944 Long Branch Bolt force match re punched or not?

D

Davegelinas

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Hi there, I recently acquired a Long Branch 1944 and the seller wrote in his post that the bolt and receiver were a match.
If you follow the link below you will see what the bolt actually looks like....
Its original serial number was obviously files off and crudely repunched to force match the receiver.
The fonts are bigger and totally different than the ones Long Branch used.
You can even see the file marks especially under the 6 where there was a slip and it isn't even blued where it was filed.
Now the seller is telling me that this is all original.
What's your 2 Cents on it?
If it was you and if you were a bit of a purist with an all match all original collection, would you be disappointed?
Because I am.
Thanks.

http://photos.app.goo.gl/sEkf8VqKvFcf4UQu9
 
If you check descriptions of milsurp what matching actually means, you will see that he is correct, even if the number was not punched when the rifle was produced originally, it is still a matching number. Even if it would be electro pencilled. You should have asked in more detail (i.e. pictures) before you bought it.
 
There's factory stamped matching (good), factory stamped, non-matching (not as good but second best for me), armourer re-stamp with what was on hand (OK I guess) and bubba for good or maybe not so good intentions. Yours, whatever it is, is not #1 or #2.
 
You are not answering my questions.
Bolt serialized at the Arsenal or not.....
I could do a better job with a punch set from the home Depot.
I wouldn't feel right if I was selling this rifle to advertise it as a full match.
I would let people know that it has been repunched.
But the seller is telling me that this is the way it left the Arsenal originally.
So I am asking those who know their Long Branch here..
Is this the way a Long Branch Bolt normally looks like?
 
The bolt is matching, whatever you interpret is your own (high) standard. "If you can't take the truth, don't ask for it".

This is what I found on the internet since you asked. I guess not straight enough for you either?

bolt.jpg
 

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Just from the photos, I suspect that the bolt is renumbered. Photos are not as good as hands on inspection, but that is my opinion.
Who did it? I don't know. A replacement bolt was renumbered to match the receiver? Where did the rifle serve? What standards were applied wherever it has spent the last 77 years?
OK, the bolt does match. Now. If the seller knew it was renumbered when out of service the description is at best misleading and at worst, fraud. I have a couple of sets of stamps. If I use them to renumber parts to make an all matching gun, and sell it as such, that would be sleazy.
Is it a Long Branch bolt?

Tell you a story...
Years ago, I saw a Colt Dragoon at a dealer's store. Well used, no finish to speak of, mismatched serial numbers. Sometime later I saw the same pistol. It now had matching numbers, and lots of finish. Priced as if all original in fine condition.
That is fraud.
 
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The fonts are different, these are proper, you can also see that the bolt was not tempered with on this picture.
oom on the pictures I posted and you can even see left over from the old serial number.
This picture you just posted and the picture I posted are completely different, it's night and day.
 
scianna54, compare the 3 in the picture you uploaded and the 3 in the picture I uploaded.
Completely different.
Plus if you zoom on the picture of my bolt you can see remains of the original serial number underneath.
The 3 is obviously re punched over a 4.
Just zoom in, you'll see.....
And it's not about my hi standard, it's about what we call Full disclosure Wich is part of a good practice.
To omit important details is not a good practice.
 
How does the 3 look like on the receiver?

Yes, people commit fraud but unless you can prove it, what are you gone do? Maybe they did not know or were the victim of fraud themselves?

I know tiriaq has high standards, me too. Still, the way you describe it, I could point out a few cases where this happened to me here on CGN, and not from a private member, not that I want to.

What if it turns out that the gun in question came from a business member on here?? Hypothetically of course.
 
I'll go on record as saying it is a grind off and re-stamp. Armourer or bubba, who knows but the shaky spacing may not be bubba, even legit factory stamps can get pretty wild. Of course if it is a British bolt that would 100% confirm a re-stamp.

What is acceptable is a complete other topic between you, the seller, what was said and if you will ever be happy with the rifle.
 
sciwnma54, the 3 on the receiver is proper with Long Branch Font, so the top of the 3 is flat like it should.
It's just sad that anyone can scrub the serial, restamp it and call it a match.
I learned my lesson and will be more diligent next time I purchase a firearm by asking for more pictures and very specific questions.
 
Davegelinas said:
sciwnma54, the 3 on the receiver is proper with Long Branch Font, so the top of the 3 is flat like it should.
It's just sad that anyone can scrub the serial, restamp it and call it a match.
I learned my lesson and will be more diligent next time I purchase a firearm by asking for more pictures and very specific questions.
Click to expand...

No, the 3s on my Longbranch are round like on yours.

The markings on Enfields always look like they were applied by a drunken Irishman.

You must show more pictures of your rifle, was it FTR?
 
polaris said:
No, the 3s on my Longbranch are round like on yours.

The markings on Enfields always look like they were applied by a drunken Irishman.

You must show more pictures of your rifle, was it FTR?
Click to expand...

Well then I am certain that the 3 on your receiver are the same font as the ones on your bolt.
Mine are not.
Plus It is easy to see by the pictures I provided that the serial number on my bolt are punched over previous serial numbers.
That makes it a force match, not a match.
This isn't the bolt that was issued with the rifle.
 
The "all matching" thing really getting a workout these days - see an ad for an "all matching" Remington receiver P14 - so "all matching" because bolt handle has same number to receiver. No mention of the other places where the full serial number was stamped in an original. Not supposed to notice the prominent "E" on the safety lever or the bolt stop box. What marks on the other parts like the bands? In that case, I will generously assume the seller is using the phrase "loosely" - but many buyers, it seems, do not know or care... And even if the numbers do match - what does that mean? - it has likely been 75 years since it was being looked after by a military - is headspace still within spec? Corrosion?? Damage?? Stock wood condition?? Similar to ads pointing out the stampings on the stock disc on a Swede rifle about bore condition - those rifles likely last inspected by a Swede armourer in mid 1950's - so 65 years ago at best - what is the value, today, of a mark they made then, based on the inspection they made of it then? What "Buyer Beware" is trying to get at!!!
 
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Hi Dave. The serial fonts on the bolt are improper for a 1944 Long Branch. The file/grinding lines evident are also a dead giveaway as to change.
As you can tell by your replys at least half the guys on this site only guess. They just do not have enough exposure to the real deal to make any kind of judgement. Chances are the seller is in this bottom half. If not then he can take a hit on his feedback unless he makes amends some way. Check your head space out too before firing as is always good practise with a composite rifle. JOHN
 
I did some research on the Internet and just ignore jtaylor's insult. I am not into Enfields anymore but used to own quite a few of them back in the day. I do not think that we have enough evidence here to call it a fraud. The way the numbers are punched in are quite typical, especially for a refurb. I do not think that this is the original bolt to the gun, otherwise the font would match and no overpunch would be seen. You still owe us the pictures of the receiver btw - any problems here or is the 3 round as well??? Force matching is quite common and does not change the status from number matching to non number matching. End of story.
 
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