1944 Long Branch Bolt force match re punched or not?

[scianna54]

Yes, it does effect value, so does every refurb to the discriminating collector. But it does not change the milsurp rating. Of course, people like tiriaq or some other guys are probably better armourers than the ones back in the day. That's why prices go up with proper documentation and authentication, factory documents etc.

edit: just looked at your receiver numbers, the 3 is round but different and the 0 on the bolt seems to be more like the O has been used. The 6 is also different - the mystery deepens, lol. Good luck

 

[Davegelinas]

If you collect Lee Enfields long enough you'll come to know that there is a lot about original finishes, etc, that remains unknown, even to the high end collectors. There is actually one manufacturer of No. 4's that is known to have used a different stamp font on receiver and bolt at time of original manufacture. That manufacturer is not Long Branch. Long Branch also didn't make an obvious "FTR" type stamp on refurbed rifles. However, I've seen a few probable refurbished rifles from Long Branch that utilized a font somewhat similar to the rifle in question on bolt and/or receiver. The rifle may well be a proper arsenal overhauled rifle but good luck confirming that. To be sure a No. 4 is demonstrably "factory original matching" requires a bunch of photos and knowledge of whether a particular factory stamped the serial on items like the barrel shank and on the wood, under the forend tip, what the original bluing (or other finish) looked like, etc. Often when you have a rifle you think to be all original, if you put together a detailed photo post on a major forum, you'll get a lot of feedback and, usually, some surprises. As someone pointed out above, these rifles have generally been through some sort of repair or refurbishment. There are some excellent condition, non-refurbished Long Branches out there- I once owned a '43 that I was 98.5% convinced was all original. However, some of the more original pieces I've stumbled upon were heavily used and never refurbished. I have a '42 Maltby that has original barrel and bolt but the wood, while it looks appropriate in condition, is un-numbered. Did Maltby number their forends in '42? No clue! I have a '41 Maltby that does have matching numbered forend but the whole rifle has the appearance of an FTR but no "FTR" stamp. I guess my point is that there is no alternative to demanding piles of photos and reaching your own (possibly) incorrect conclusion about a specific rifle.

milsurpo

If you collect Lee Enfields long enough you'll come to know that there is a lot about original finishes, etc, that remains unknown, even to the high end collectors. There is actually one manufacturer of No. 4's that is known to have used a different stamp font on receiver and bolt at time of original manufacture. That manufacturer is not Long Branch. Long Branch also didn't make an obvious "FTR" type stamp on refurbed rifles. However, I've seen a few probable refurbished rifles from Long Branch that utilized a font somewhat similar to the rifle in question on bolt and/or receiver. The rifle may well be a proper arsenal overhauled rifle but good luck confirming that. To be sure a No. 4 is demonstrably "factory original matching" requires a bunch of photos and knowledge of whether a particular factory stamped the serial on items like the barrel shank and on the wood, under the forend tip, what the original bluing (or other finish) looked like, etc. Often when you have a rifle you think to be all original, if you put together a detailed photo post on a major forum, you'll get a lot of feedback and, usually, some surprises. As someone pointed out above, these rifles have generally been through some sort of repair or refurbishment. There are some excellent condition, non-refurbished Long Branches out there- I once owned a '43 that I was 98.5% convinced was all original. However, some of the more original pieces I've stumbled upon were heavily used and never refurbished. I have a '42 Maltby that has original barrel and bolt but the wood, while it looks appropriate in condition, is un-numbered. Did Maltby number their forends in '42? No clue! I have a '41 Maltby that does have matching numbered forend but the whole rifle has the appearance of an FTR but no "FTR" stamp. I guess my point is that there is no alternative to demanding piles of photos and reaching your own (possibly) incorrect conclusion about a specific rifle.

milsurpo

I agree with all you said and I know that the retamp was not done by the previous owner but was made at the armory while been FTR.
But if I knew that the bolt was force matched instead of a true matching bolt, I would of not purchased it.
I never said or lead to believe that this was done by the previous owner.
But I believe it should of been disclosed before the transaction was completed.
I guess it's just like a vintage Camaro, it might have the proper block under the hood and that might be fine for most, but a true collector, will rather have the original block with matching serial than a replacement.
Call me a purist, but if someone buy a firearm from me, I will describe its flaws and I will make certain the buyer gets what he paid for.

 

[Davegelinas]

Are all your bands, safety mechanism, trigger guard and bolt head, just to name a few without out removing the stock, bearing correct stamps?
Or are we just arguing the validity of the serial font on the bolt handle?

The rear top handguard is English, and that bothered me also, but I will source a Canadian rail and replace it.
The rest is 100% LB

 

[polaris]

One thing is certain, the rear of the bolt was filed flat and restamped.
Who did it? nobody knows.

You still didn't show a picture of the complete rifle, maybe it went to Ishapore?

 

[Davegelinas]

One thing is certain, the rear of the bolt was filed flat and restamped.
Who did it? nobody knows.

You still didn't show a picture of the complete rifle, maybe it went to Ishapore?

It was sold to the Italian navy, and they are the ones who restamped the bolt to forcematch it 100%.
50 % of the Italian Navy Enfield were a match the other 50% a forcematch

I am currently working on the rifle so I can't post picture of the complete rifle at this point, but I will once it's cleaned and out back together.
And I will repeats this once more, I never blamed the previous owner for doing the force match as I know it was done at the armory.
But have I known it was not a matching bolt, I would of not purchased it.

 

[Davegelinas]

One thing is certain, the rear of the bolt was filed flat and restamped.
Who did it? nobody knows.

You still didn't show a picture of the complete rifle, maybe it went to Ishapore?

It was done in Italy not in India.

 

[Snider shooter]

I think the issues should have been mentioned before the sale was completed. I am with DG on this. He expected a full matching rifle that had not gone through FTR with all parts as they left the factory it was built in. Forced matched is technically matching but not what was expected. Sounds like you are keeping the rifle, hopefully you can enjoy it. I keep looking for a Long Branch barrel and action so I can put my parts on, but hasn’t happened yet. I may just decide to buy an original.

 

[ArtyMan]

I agree with all you said and I know that the retamp was not done by the previous owner but was made at the armory while been FTR.
But if I knew that the bolt was force matched instead of a true matching bolt, I would of not purchased it.
I never said or lead to believe that this was done by the previous owner.
But I believe it should of been disclosed before the transaction was completed.
I guess it's just like a vintage Camaro, it might have the proper block under the hood and that might be fine for most, but a true collector, will rather have the original block with matching serial than a replacement.
Call me a purist, but if someone buy a firearm from me, I will describe its flaws and I will make certain the buyer gets what he paid for.

Just curious - what is a "true" collector?

 

[polaris]

Just curious - what is a "true" collector?

Good question.

if there are true collectors, there must also be:
- fake collectors
- serious collectors
- ignorant collectors
- sleazy collectors
- garbage collctors
and the EE favourite
- picture collectors

 

[Davegelinas]

Good question.

if there are true collectors, there must also be:
- fake collectors
- serious collectors
- ignorant collectors
- sleazy collectors
- garbage collctors
and the EE favourite
- picture collectors

A true collector would be someone highly focused on a particular interest.

Someone who not only invest money but time to educate himseld on a specific field.
Someone seeking quality and purity.
Exemple, some average collector wil collect Milsurps and will acquire a Mausers, an Enfields, an arisakas etc.. not worrying too much about the model or year of manufacturing.
Others will be true Enfield or Mauser or Arisaka collector.
These are the one seeking specific models and years in original condition or pristine condition.
Same goes for prety much anything, many likes cars, not everyone is a true car collector, many like dogs but not everyone is willing to spend $10 000 on a pure breed German Short Hair Pointer.
We are all different and even if we share simillar passion it is not always to the same degree.
So to me a true collector is someone who has gathered many high quality items on his field of interest to a point where it is almost an obsession and their Collection constitue an impressive inventory of very specific items.
A true collector is more of a purist nature than one who is willing to accept and tolerate imperfection.
That is only my opinion and point of view on the question.

 

[scianna54]

Good question.

if there are true collectors, there must also be:
- fake collectors
- serious collectors
- ignorant collectors
- sleazy collectors
- garbage collctors
and the EE favourite
- picture collectors

Picture collectors are a result of lazy EE sellers. I don't remember this influx of EE ads without pictures, some even without a price.

Maybe this led our "true collector" to act in a rush and didn't take his time to ask more specific, incl. pictures.

The fact that he calls himself a discriminating or true collector does not allow him to set the same high standards on others as well.

You can spend a fortune on milsurp without falling in the category of a "true collector".

Being an intelligent individual should make him realize that. He is refusing it and not getting my pity for it, no pun intended.


edit: We don't know the truth on this one, you can only speculate about it. Not as clear as some guy who sold a "real Mosin Sniper rifle" to a naive individual who even refuses to acknowledge the fact when it was clearly explained to him, lol.

Or worse, when a seller is advertising an "antique" revolver with no license required when it is clear that it is a prohibited firearm. Oh well, that's life. edit: the seller deleted it now.

.

 

[jonh172]

But if I knew that the bolt was force matched .

“Force” matched is not a term used in the enfield world. Numbers were never “force” matched, the term implies parts were cobbled together then electro penciled for tracking purposes. Force matched parts are items like trigger guards and mag bases, things that could work on any rifle if simply swapped.

“Serialize” parts on Enfields are ones that are hand fit and belong solely to that serialized action.
Your bolt was not force matched, it was hand fit then stamped accordingly as they all were when built and/or refurbished. It IS the proper bolt for that rifle.

Even their magazines were hand fit.
Serializing magazines was mostly a post war procedure tho, is your magazine serialized?

The rear top handguard is English, and that bothered me also, but I will source a Canadian rail and replace it.
The rest is 100% LB

I feel this is leading us to the conclusion we already knew. It’s a typical refurb. Probably hardly used so retained its parts OR someone along the way over the last 70 + years went to the trouble of replacing the English parts for LB.
Your bolt DOES match.
You were not duped, you bought a rifle with matching bolt as advertised.

It sucks to find out it’s not the rifle you thought it was, but claiming you were mis-lead, lied to or scammed won’t make it that rifle.

We’ve all had our “ live and learn” lessons.

 

[polaris]

he is well on his way to become a "true" collector, he is just paying his tuition, I believe.

 

[scianna54]

he is well on his way to become a "true" collector, he is just paying his tuition, I believe.

I don't agree, there is only one thing to be learned here - reading and studying what the terms actually mean.

I told him right off the bat that he is wrong with his assumptions - and it was confirmed by others.

Go to the US boards, much to learn there and what to look for. I do it all the time, the knowledge is there.

A friend of mine who is a collector with deep pockets knows what to look for. I am sometimes literally shocked what he knows and what to look for, he told me "it's all out there, read it and listen". I always think he overpays, he doesn't, he just knows what to look for.

 

[coolcuda]

You can always try to find a un numbered LB Mag.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Post pics of the whole rifle with close ups.

Then you will know if it’s been Humped, Dinked With, Dicked, Faked,

Renumbered for Profit, Bubba’d by Bubba, and any other forms of

Douchebaggery applied to it, in whole or in part.

 

[Snowdingo]

You are not answering my questions.
Bolt serialized at the Arsenal or not.....
I could do a better job with a punch set from the home Depot.
I wouldn't feel right if I was selling this rifle to advertise it as a full match.
I would let people know that it has been repunched.
But the seller is telling me that this is the way it left the Arsenal originally.
So I am asking those who know their Long Branch here..
Is this the way a Long Branch Bolt normally looks like?

Unless the seller has had possession since it left the "arsenal" I don't know how he can know this for sure

 

[QM 8687]

I've handled several thousand Lee Enfields. In my job, at the shows, at local, federal and international comps., even owned a few last 40 years. They are often crudely stamped, numbers, letters, inspector marks, and others. WWII 2,000 rifles produced daily means a lot of fast work. And armorers and weapons technician 421 would stamp or restamp according to their orders or sop.
I often say what do think the Sgt would do if i said, "Sarge I can't put that part on this Cadet Enfield, it has a different makers mark." Punishment would be Extra Duties.

 

[Snowdingo]

I've handled several thousand Lee Enfields. In my job, at the shows, at local, federal and international comps., even owned a few last 40 years. They are often crudely stamped, numbers, letters, inspector marks, and others. WWII 2,000 rifles produced daily means a lot of fast work. And armorers and weapons technician 421 would stamp or restamp according to their orders or sop.
I often say what do think the Sgt would do if i said, "Sarge I can't put that part on this Cadet Enfield, it has a different makers mark." Punishment would be Extra Duties.

Lol yep. And throw in the thousands that were repaired in the field, in theatres around the globe, through two world wars

 

[rm_rang]

Hi there, I recently acquired a Long Branch 1944 and the seller wrote in his post that the bolt and receiver were a match.
If you follow the link below you will see what the bolt actually looks like....
Its original serial number was obviously files off and crudely repunched to force match the receiver.
The fonts are bigger and totally different than the ones Long Branch used.
You can even see the file marks especially under the 6 where there was a slip and it isn't even blued where it was filed.
Now the seller is telling me that this is all original.
What's your 2 Cents on it?
If it was you and if you were a bit of a purist with an all match all original collection, would you be disappointed?
Because I am.
Thanks.

http://photos.app.goo.gl/sEkf8VqKvFcf4UQu9

Funny he should say that, because this is exactly what this guy just did to me with a no1mk3 smle



This is the picture I was able to view before asking him to confirm it wasn’t restamped because for whatever reason it was blurry and I wanted to make sure it was all original before confirming the trade.




And when I get home I’ll send a clear picture of the rear sight clearly showing it was crossed out and restamped to match