Sig Sauer faces $10 Million lawsuit over P320 after AD wounds federal agent
- Thread starter Wendell
- Start date
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Sort of. The issue is that the firearm passed the specifications for drop testing, but people figured out how to drop it in a manner not indicated on the test specifications that will result in a discharge.
Simply put, if a certain amount of force is applied to the right part of the firearm from the right angle the trigger will trip. This is true of many all firearms to some degree or another.
The only debate is whether that type of force is likely to be applied under normal use. Dropping a gun is a possible scenario. Throwing the gun at the ground is not reasonable and neet not be considered an issue.
It is highly unlikely that the pattern of force identified in relation to the drop test issue will be found to be associated with a person trying to draw the firearm from the holster. Based on what Ive read, A person snatching the pistol grip in a normal draw is the wrong angle, not enough force and not a sharp enough impact to activate the trigger.
I seriously doubt the claim by the victim that on the draw they never touched the trigger.
When a gun is tainted by the safety issues that the sig is tainted with, every ADis going to get blamed on that safety issue whether it is merited or not.
I suspect unless the claimant is able to recreate the discharge under the alleged circumstances I suspect the claim will fail.
The fun part is all of the witnesses are his peers and I suspect no one will be able to testify whether the individual touched the trigger or not.
My bigger concern is that sig is likely to be plagued with these kind of lawsuits and may eventually abandon the product just to be rid of the never ending lawsuits.
Whats missing from this article is a comparison to the rate of ADs NDs associated with other pistols.
28 ADs since the fleet was rolled out is actually a low number. The CAF has hundreds of AD/UD/NDs every year, predominatly with the service rifle and service pistol. Lots of people blame the firearm. Rarely is that found to be the case.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Every firearm in wide circulation will have a long list of incidents. Few are investigated with sufficient rigour to conclusively determine anything.
The 320s biggest problem is its reputation.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Thats a really good video. Love the explanation and detailed technical approach.
Inertia safety and manual safety will be non starters for a lot of people.
Interesting that this video came out BEFORE the alleged incident in the OP.
I wonder how people are running the wrong holster?
If your holster is contacting the trigger thats a problem. If the gun can get dirty enough under normal use to defeat the internal safety thats a huge problem
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Cameron, I think you made a number of very good points. I'm fairly skeptical of this particular lawsuit / incident because as others have pointed out, the injuries don't quite add up with the claimant's story of the pistol going off when he grabbed it in the holster. I think you made an excellent observation that because there is a history of issues related to the P320, there is a certain rise in lawsuits against it in order to capitalize on the perception that the firearm is unsafe, whether or not that is true.
The US is a very litigious country and I think a lot of people will opt to sue if they think they can win a settlement of some kind. It certainly is in Sig's best interest to make bad press go away, although individual lawsuits like this are unlikely to reverse major contracts like the M17 / M18 MHP.
Adding on to that, I think in the LEO / Mil culture there's definitely a stigma against AD / ND, and it makes total sense to me that someone would want to blame it on their firearm instead of (potentially) themselves. It still happens with Glocks, but there isn't the same sort of unsafe perception tacked onto the Glock brand as there is with the Sig P320 right now. The vast majority of Law Enforcement and Military personnel are not 'gun people' despite the public perception that they are.
Just because the injured claimant in this case was a 'former marine' and worked for ICE doesn't mean his technique was any good, or that he was actually any good with his issued weapon. From what I've read, most LE pistol quals are shockingly easy. I'm only a B-Class Production IPSC shooter but I have scored a 90% on the FBI qual shooting it cold with a stock Glock 17. Reading over the ICE pistol qual, it's even easier. I guess I'm trying to say that I agree with Cameron - People blame the gun but more often than not it's the shooter.
The US is a very litigious country and I think a lot of people will opt to sue if they think they can win a settlement of some kind. It certainly is in Sig's best interest to make bad press go away, although individual lawsuits like this are unlikely to reverse major contracts like the M17 / M18 MHP.
Adding on to that, I think in the LEO / Mil culture there's definitely a stigma against AD / ND, and it makes total sense to me that someone would want to blame it on their firearm instead of (potentially) themselves. It still happens with Glocks, but there isn't the same sort of unsafe perception tacked onto the Glock brand as there is with the Sig P320 right now. The vast majority of Law Enforcement and Military personnel are not 'gun people' despite the public perception that they are.
Just because the injured claimant in this case was a 'former marine' and worked for ICE doesn't mean his technique was any good, or that he was actually any good with his issued weapon. From what I've read, most LE pistol quals are shockingly easy. I'm only a B-Class Production IPSC shooter but I have scored a 90% on the FBI qual shooting it cold with a stock Glock 17. Reading over the ICE pistol qual, it's even easier. I guess I'm trying to say that I agree with Cameron - People blame the gun but more often than not it's the shooter.
You can bet, if they haven't already, Sig will apply to the court to have the gun and holster for testing, by them usually or by a third party. Most of the N/Ds are found to be operator error, or wrong equipment. In the Canadian forces case it was a modified holster for a P-226 being used with a P-320. Another case in the U.S. was an officer reholstering his P-320 without checking for clearance after a high stress take down. The little plastic pull tie on his fleece jacket was in his holster and he shoved the gun in. It caught on the trigger and luckily the round disintegrated as it hit the concrete. This happens so much, that on the courses I was on down south, one of the safety protocols was take your jacket off, or pull all the zips and ties up out of the way, or cut the ties off altogether. Everyone, for some reason are always in a rush to reholster, especially after shooting a qual string of fire.
I have a friend at the Oregon Police Academy who was running the line for qualification for a mixed class of deputies and police officers. Standing behind the line he was shot in the foot with a .40 S&W when a deputy reholstered his Glock and the trigger caught on one of these ties. He recovered after months off and still has pieces of that round in his foot.
Every firearm has had issues brought to the front, early Beretta 92s could have the slide stripped from the frame even when loaded, slide in battery with a small motion on the take down lever, S&W 59 series and others with the mag disconnect could fire the chambered round with the mag removed if there was even a slight pressure on the trigger as the mag was taken from the gun. To prove that, I know of two lockers in a certain detachment that had holes in them right after we moved into the new location. Luckily no one was shot on the other side. And then there are all those stories when Glocks were getting adopted in large numbers in the U.S.A..
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts and what the forensic firearms examiners say. In the mean time, I will still use my Glocks and Sigs.
P.
I have a friend at the Oregon Police Academy who was running the line for qualification for a mixed class of deputies and police officers. Standing behind the line he was shot in the foot with a .40 S&W when a deputy reholstered his Glock and the trigger caught on one of these ties. He recovered after months off and still has pieces of that round in his foot.
Every firearm has had issues brought to the front, early Beretta 92s could have the slide stripped from the frame even when loaded, slide in battery with a small motion on the take down lever, S&W 59 series and others with the mag disconnect could fire the chambered round with the mag removed if there was even a slight pressure on the trigger as the mag was taken from the gun. To prove that, I know of two lockers in a certain detachment that had holes in them right after we moved into the new location. Luckily no one was shot on the other side. And then there are all those stories when Glocks were getting adopted in large numbers in the U.S.A..
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the courts and what the forensic firearms examiners say. In the mean time, I will still use my Glocks and Sigs.
P.
i still do not understand how an accident will get the shot back line with someone shooting in front.
in the army when we trained the new recruits with the mac 50 and they used soft holster we never had that kind of incident. maybe the trigger was not as light but never had incident as well with auto mode rifles. and despite many new users really nervous around firearms.
i find it strange that some always blame the operator and some other the tools. it should be in between.
like one said earlier that specific handgun needs to be sold with the extra safety ...
The instructor was directly behind the student. The angle of the student's holster, with a slight muzzle rear and the student's posture when the gun was holstered allowed for the round to hit the concrete range floor, flatten out and go rearward.
You are right in so much as most of these N/Ds should be classified as training issues or improper use and not a fault of some mechanical defect in the firearm itself. Whether it's a Glock, S&W M&P or Sig, in standard configuration anything that deactivates the trigger safety, can allow the gun to fire. The question is, if it's a training issue, does that mean we need more and more safeties, manual ones added, or do we train our people properly like we are supposed to.
The original post was about another claim against Sig. I am really interested in the outcome, to see what or who will take the blame.
P.
Don't make assumptions. The wrong holster and it being modified were identified as factors, only SIG believes it was the root cause.
No, no it wasn't. SIG issued TWO seperate "voluntary upgrades" to address the "non safety issue" with their pistols. Read below for the details.
Don't make assumptions without facts. Plenty of cases of 320's going off without human contact. Read below.
Yes, plenty, read the list below.
Don't assume it was the holster that caused the unintentional discharge, plenty of cases of it happening with the proper holster and zero human contact.
The angle for the discharge in the 320 drop tests is merely on it's back, the rear of the slide. Most other major brands were tested by Omaha Outdoors and none of them had an ND.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNMuqZle_6Q
Below you will find a list of many cases of unintentional discharges from 320 pistols. Many examples involve guns POST "voluntary upgrade". The majority of the issues are unintentional discharges, and NOT a result of being dropped on their backs. So what does that mean? It means the 320 has TWO separate and very serious safety issues. The first being the drop firing, which was brought to SIG's attention by the US Army, was corrected for the US Army trials, but was kept under wraps from the public until they were sued by a cop and a couple others for suffering injuries related to being shot when their guns were dropped. The second issue, is relatively new, and involves the guns going off without any human contact.
https://www.unionleader.com/news/cou...943be8493.html
For example, in February of 2016, a fully-holstered P320 discharged without a trigger
pull inside a Roscommon, Michigan police officer’s vehicle when the officer moved to exit the
vehicle during a snowstorm. The incident was captured on the officer’s body cam video (fn. 3
above) and shows that no object entered his holster at any time.
65. In 2016, the Surprise, Arizona, police department complained to SIG of two separate
incidents of P320s firing without trigger pulls.
66. Despite outstanding discovery requests in a civil action against SIG regarding defects
with the P320 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia in 2018,
Vadnais v. SIG Sauer, Inc., 1:18-cv-00540 (EDVA 2018), these three incidents described in
Paragraphs 64 and 65 herein were not disclosed by SIG, until the last day of discovery.
67. In October of 2016, a P320 fired un-commanded on retired NYPD officer Thomas
Frankenberry in South Carolina, severely injuring him. The spent casing did not eject.
68. In November of 2016, a P320 fired un-commanded on an officer in Holmes Beach,
Florida, striking him in his leg.
69. In 2017, a sheriff’s deputy in Michigan accidentally discharged a SIG Sauer pistol,
striking a schoolteacher in the neck.
70. On January 5, 2017, a P320 shot a Stamford SWAT team member in his left knee when
the pistol fell from a distance of less than three feet to the ground while fully holstered, refuting
SIG’s express representations that the weapon is drop safe, cannot fire without a trigger pull,
and does not require a safety to be drop safe.
71. On February 28, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged while in use by the University of
Cincinnati Police Department.
72. On June 14, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Wilsonville, Oregon.
73. On June 20, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged while in use by the Howell Township,
NJ, Police Department.
24
74. In June 2017, SIG shipped approximately 800 P320s to the Loudoun County Sheriff’s
Department in Virginia, privately assuring Sheriff David Chapman that the by then known
problems with the weapon would be fixed, but stating that for the time being it had to deal with
the weapon as currently manufactured and designed. Three P320s within this shipment later
fired without trigger pulls on three deputy sheriffs, severely injuring them. 4
75. On July 28, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Tarrant County, Texas.
76. On August 7, 2017, SIG’s CEO, Ron Cohen, stated in a press release that: “there have
been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. Commercial market.” This
statement was not true. In fact, at the time it was issued, SIG had direct knowledge that Officer
Vincent Sheperis in Connecticut had been shot by a drop fire with the commercial version of the
P320 approximately eight months earlier, as well as several other defective discharges of the
P320 before that date.
77. As noted, on August 8, 2017, SIG announced a “voluntary upgrade” program for the
P320 pistol, stating that the pistol meets “rigorous testing protocols for global military and law
enforcement agencies” and all “U.S. standards for safety.”
78. This statement was also false and intentionally misleading as there are no United States
federal government standards for gun safety, a fact well known to SIG when it issued this press
release.5
79. SIG’s VU program, as noted, was presented to the public as purely optional, not urgent,
and not mandatory, offering to make existing commercial versions of the P320 “better” by
installing a much lighter trigger, an internal disconnector component, and an improved sear to
prevent accidental discharges.
4
Both a non-upgraded and “upgraded” re-designed versions of these P320s later fired un-commanded
on and hit at least three Loudoun County deputy sheriffs in 2018 and 2019.
5
No federal agency oversees how firearms are designed or built. Congress exempted firearms from any
federal regulation when it created the Consumer Product Safety Commission in 1972, due to Second
Amendment concerns.
25
80. On August 9, 2017, the police chief of Morrow, Georgia, issued an emergency order
removing the P320 from service.
81. In October of 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Georgia when an officer fell to the
ground in pursuit of a suspect. His weapon was holstered and fired simply when he struck the
ground.
82. On November 12, 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Tyler, Texas.
83. In January 2018, upon information and belief, a P320 accidentally discharged in Dallas
County, Texas.
84. On February 7, 2018, Loudoun County, Virginia, deputy sheriff Marcie Vadnais’s P320
fired on her un-commanded severing her right femur causing catastrophic skeletal injury,
deformity, four general anesthesia surgeries, severe emotional distress, and related trauma,
ending her career. Upon CAT scanning her P320, it was found to have both a product and
manufacturing defect: crossed sear springs that apply upward spring pressure to the sear to
keep it from releasing the striker.
85. Months later in April of 2018, SIG issued a second “voluntary upgrade” notice to all
users or owners of the P320, but still did not recall the weapon.
86. In May of 2018, civilian Gunter Walker reported to SIG that his P320 fired on him uncommanded when he placed the weapon down on his nightstand, shooting him through the
palm of his left hand.
87. In June of 2018, a Williams County, Ohio, officer reported that his P320 discharged twice
in one moment as he was merely attempting to move the slide backward. One round grazed
the officer’s arm; the other blew through his patrol car’s driver’s side door.
88. In May 2018, a Rancho Cucamonga, California, officer reported that his “upgraded”
P320 fired un-commanded while he was merely walking inside his department locker room; the
casing of the round did not eject.
26
89. In October of 2018, a P320 fired un-commanded on Lieutenant Letrell Hayes in Georgia
while he was holstering it, causing severe tunneling injuries to his right thigh and calf.
90. In October of 2018, firearms expert and retired law enforcement officer Stephen Mayes’
P320 fired on him un-commanded while seated in its holster, causing severe injury to his right
leg.
91. In December of 2018, civilian Robert Lang’s P320 fired on him un-commanded, causing
severe tunneling wounds to his right leg.
92. On May 19, 2019, the upgraded P320 of Lieutenant Thomas Ahern of the Cambridge,
Massachusetts, SWAT team fired un-commanded inside a SWAT van with six other occupants
while he was working a shift for the annual Mayfair event near Harvard Square. The round
struck a metal plate affixed to his cellphone case, deflected into a SWAT gear bag, and came to
rest in a ballistic helmet, narrowly missing everyone. The casing of the round did not eject.
Lieutenant Ahern is a SIG-certified armorer on the P320 with significant weapons experience. 6
93. On July 23, 2019, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Walter Collette, Jr.
of the Somerville, Massachusetts, police department, hitting him in his leg and causing
substantial injuries to his leg. The next day, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on a
Homeland Security Agent at a firing range in the Bronx, New York.
94. In August of 2019, a Philadelphia transit officer’s upgraded P320 fired un-commanded
while fully-holstered, nearly striking a bystander in the subway. The incident was captured on
video, it shows an “upgraded” P320 firing without the gun ever being touched and seated inside
6
According to SIG Sauer documents, “[t]he SIG SAUER factory armorer certification enables the agency
armorer or individual user to completely disassemble, inspect, service, and re-assemble associated
weapon systems without voiding the factory warranty. Proper and routine weapon maintenance and
inspection of a firearm are essential to ensure maximum reliability. Factory armorer courses at SIG
SAUER Academy certify agency armorers or individuals to maintain, inspect, service, and repair selected
SIG SAUER firearms while preserving the factory warranty. Upon successful completion, armorers will
fully understand each firearm and be factory-certified for a period of three years.”
https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/cour...-certification
27
its holster. The officer involved, who noted that the round almost hit a bystander, was returned
to duty the next day fully exonerated and with no discipline.
95. The Philadelphia transit authority replaced all SIG P320s, and later fully exonerated the
officer of any alleged wrongdoing in view of the content of the videotape of the incident showing
that it fired without a trigger pull. The officer, Craig Jacklyn, later stated:
This weapon is a hazard. I actually spoke with a lawyer for my situation. Although no
one was hurt...someone could have been killed. I'm angry that I was put in a potentially
life altering position with a product deemed "safe" by its manufacturer. The fact that
officers are carrying this weapon on the job and at home around family thinking it's safe
even while resting in its holster has me very angry. Everything that I've told you is
documented through 2 Investigative Services . . . Philadelphia Police Firearms
Investigative Unit/ Officer Involved Shooting Incident Unit and SEPTA Transit Police
Criminal Investigations Unit. There is station video footage/ body worn camera footage
as well.
96. On September 3, 2019, another upgraded and re-designed P320 in use by the Loudoun
County, Virginia, sheriff’s office fired un-commanded on another Loudoun County deputy sheriff,
Carl Costello, hitting him in his leg.
97. On October 10, 2019, Officer Jacques Desrosiers, also of the Cambridge,
Massachusetts, police department, was shot by his P320 without a trigger pull. The round
caused massive and life-changing injuries to Officer Desrosiers. The spent casing of the round
did not eject.
98. On October 11, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Veterans Affairs police officer
Frank J. Kneski, striking him beneath his lower back as he was un-holstering the weapon. Upon
inspection it was found that the spent casing did not eject.
99. The Kneski discharge was investigated by Major Peter J. Villani of the United States
Veterans Affairs police agency, also a SIG-certified armorer. In his report, he noted the
following:
After reviewing the Officer’s sidearm, it was noted that the P-320 came from Sig Sauer
to the distributor prior to the point of sale already with the “upgrade” completed. The
sidearm had approximately 100 rounds through it since purchased.
28
Upon further examination of the internal parts of the frame module, I noticed that the foot
of the striker that catches the [sear] has noticeable side to side and up and down
movement within its channel along with upward movement of the slide from the frame.
Also, the edge of the striker foot which has a height thickness of approximately 2mm, is
only making contact with approximately .25 of a mm of the leading edge only of the
disconnector hook. Since the striker has been changed with a lighter weight version
during the “upgrade program”, it is quite possible that any abrupt movement or twisting
of the P-320 while holstered, could cause the foot of the striker to disengage itself from
the disconnector hook on its own since there is so little contact between the striker foot
and the [sear].
100. On November 9, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Matthew Gardette of the
Manteca, California police department as he was getting ready for work. As he merely
attempted to place and fasten his duty belt around his waist, the P320 discharged inside the
holster.
101. The holster was a Safariland level three holster with the hood cover up securing the
pistol. The round blew out the bottom of the holster, impacted the locker room floor, and missed
both Officer Gardette and a fellow officer by inches as it ricocheted into a locker door.
102. On December 2, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded while in the possession of Detective
David Albert, also of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, police department, as he was in the
process of putting his duty belt on.
103. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a Pasco County, Florida officer,
severely wounding him in his right leg. This incident was the third un-commanded discharge
experienced by Pasco County officers since 2019.
104. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a civilian in Missouri while fully seated
in its holster, causing substantial damage to the holster and resulting in a broken bone to the
civilian’s foot.
105. Upon information and belief, employees at SIG’s own training academy in New
Hampshire have knowledge of defective discharges causing injury that occurred in both 2016
and 2017.
All of this can be found at the link below.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2138070-Sig-M17-or-Glock-17-19x?p=17913004#post17913004
damn, i have been looking into a p320 lately, I've been firing a buddy's and really enjoy it, too bad, I guess I will be looking into a different model now.
Milofficer nailed it, unfortunately USA is very "Law Suit" prone.
When we roll time back a 30 years there were lot's of headlines regarding another gun pretty new to the market having problems and firing "on it's own". Left leaning media loves to take shots are Police, Military, "the NRA!" and Gun Companies. They love headlines and when you fast forward sometimes what was first reported did not end up to be the truth.
Example, when the Glock fired in a holster, shooting a Canadian Police Officer in the leg. Many people were convinced that the Officer had pulled the trigger. Glock said it was impossible to fire inside the holster. Experts far and wide weighed in....in the end it was discovered after independent investigation....yes the gun did fire in the holster. The frame rails were slightly cracked, pressure placed on the grip of the gun, slightly pulled the slide away from the frame. The trigger plate slipped off of the striker and went forward. Some "experts" advised that the Glock striker didn't have enough spring tension to pierce a primer before the trigger was pulled...only after pulling the trigger and completing the striker release....wrong. The Glock has more than enough spring tension to fire a round from the trigger forward position. Then the "experts" said the firing pin safety would stop the striker / firing pin. In theory yes it should have....in practice no it never, as it was worn (could be argued that Glock had a flawed firing pin safety design).
End result is yes the Glock fired in the holster. (Has happened more than once in Canadian Police Service.)
Does this mean the Glock is a bad gun? No it's a great gun, has some flaws, needs careful maintenance / parts replacement and is good to go. New versions (Gen 5) have attempted to improve upon some of these identified issues (could be argued that this was a few decades late by Glock).
Rich
When we roll time back a 30 years there were lot's of headlines regarding another gun pretty new to the market having problems and firing "on it's own". Left leaning media loves to take shots are Police, Military, "the NRA!" and Gun Companies. They love headlines and when you fast forward sometimes what was first reported did not end up to be the truth.
Example, when the Glock fired in a holster, shooting a Canadian Police Officer in the leg. Many people were convinced that the Officer had pulled the trigger. Glock said it was impossible to fire inside the holster. Experts far and wide weighed in....in the end it was discovered after independent investigation....yes the gun did fire in the holster. The frame rails were slightly cracked, pressure placed on the grip of the gun, slightly pulled the slide away from the frame. The trigger plate slipped off of the striker and went forward. Some "experts" advised that the Glock striker didn't have enough spring tension to pierce a primer before the trigger was pulled...only after pulling the trigger and completing the striker release....wrong. The Glock has more than enough spring tension to fire a round from the trigger forward position. Then the "experts" said the firing pin safety would stop the striker / firing pin. In theory yes it should have....in practice no it never, as it was worn (could be argued that Glock had a flawed firing pin safety design).
End result is yes the Glock fired in the holster. (Has happened more than once in Canadian Police Service.)
Does this mean the Glock is a bad gun? No it's a great gun, has some flaws, needs careful maintenance / parts replacement and is good to go. New versions (Gen 5) have attempted to improve upon some of these identified issues (could be argued that this was a few decades late by Glock).
Rich
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
And thus ends my brief interest in the 320.
Well Cameron SS,
Depending on what you want the gun for, you might want to have some interest. They are starting to clean up in USPSA and action shooting stateside.
National Standard Champion shot a Legion one weekend in Carry Optics and was second Nationally. After that he changed top ends, shot standard and won the National Standard Title, cleaning up on all the custom 1911's.
Team Sig has their former AMU shooters using them and winning AREA championships and their team Captain Max winning national titles too.
Lots of shooters using them successfully without issues.
Any gun can break down, even ones from companies that claim they are "Perfection and the bestest in the world". Every gun needs regular parts changes, some just need it more than others to keep from breaking down.
Someone should notify all branches of the United States Military and advise them that they should get their test data from "Omaha Outdoors".
Rich
Depending on what you want the gun for, you might want to have some interest. They are starting to clean up in USPSA and action shooting stateside.
National Standard Champion shot a Legion one weekend in Carry Optics and was second Nationally. After that he changed top ends, shot standard and won the National Standard Title, cleaning up on all the custom 1911's.
Team Sig has their former AMU shooters using them and winning AREA championships and their team Captain Max winning national titles too.
Lots of shooters using them successfully without issues.
Any gun can break down, even ones from companies that claim they are "Perfection and the bestest in the world". Every gun needs regular parts changes, some just need it more than others to keep from breaking down.
Someone should notify all branches of the United States Military and advise them that they should get their test data from "Omaha Outdoors".
Rich
not all branches of us army are or will use the sig ... some are still with g19 ...let s put it SEAL teams, USMC with CSI team and other unit M007 for a specific g19m,SOC and DELTA as well ... any units that have the choice did not choose your favourite ones rich ...
medvedqc,
You misunderstand me. Not my favorite, I'm on the Walther Band Wagon currently!
That said one cannot deny the success of Action shooters with the Sig P320 whether you love or hate it.
The Units you mentioned are using Glock 19, regular Army SF groups are starting the slow switch to the M18 and variants.
As long as they have a weapon in stock in numbers that works well they will continue to use it. SEALS actually have several different guns in inventory, including the awesome and huge MK23 that I'm told rarely gets drawn out.
Rich
You misunderstand me. Not my favorite, I'm on the Walther Band Wagon currently!
That said one cannot deny the success of Action shooters with the Sig P320 whether you love or hate it.
The Units you mentioned are using Glock 19, regular Army SF groups are starting the slow switch to the M18 and variants.
As long as they have a weapon in stock in numbers that works well they will continue to use it. SEALS actually have several different guns in inventory, including the awesome and huge MK23 that I'm told rarely gets drawn out.
Rich
For starters the Glock slogan in it's entirety is "Perfection in simplicity". For comparison SIG's slogan is "never settle" I guess that doesn't apply to their lawsuits. At the end of the day a slogan is a slogan, stop looking into it for more than it's worth.
Top end shooters will do well with any pistol, it's why they're called fundamentals. Doing well with an unsafe gun, isn't doing well. It's reckless. Same goes for guys pinning their grip safeties on 1911's.
Max Michele is a paid shill for SIG and the USAMU will use what they're issued. Remember, the goal of the USAMU is to encourage enlistment, not promote the shooting disciplines. And the goal of Max Michele is to get paid for shilling the brand who's paying him for such.
The SIG 320's firing uncommanded are not the result of worn parts. It is entirely the result of a poorly designed pistol.
I'm not sure which part of the mentioned lawsuit you missed. Was it the uncommanded firings from dozens of folks? Perhaps it was the part where SIG lied about the drop firing issue? Maybe it was the part where they offered a bullsh*t "voluntary upgrade" to fix unsafe guns.... TWICE. None of those sound like the actions of a stellar company or product.
All of SOCOM has been using Glock 19's for well over a decade. The SEALs were the last to official adopt them a couple years ago. With the 320 being available since 2014, and no one in SOCOM selecting it, I think it's safe to say they aren't interested..
