United States Rifle Model of 1917

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Potashminer

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From reading, apparently US Military never did put serial number of receiver, on to the bolt of the rifle. Britain and Canada did, when they received them. So, with a number of them here to put together - how did the USA associate a particular bolt with a particular receiver, or did they even worry about it? I have two examples that were alleged to have been purchased as "surplus" - one does not have a serial number on the bolt handle, another has a different number that does not even appear to be within any serial number range - so possibly was stamped for another purpose?? One rifle's stock is marked up as per the WWII overhaul at Augusta Arsenal, complete with an HS made barrel (High Standard), so was not expected to "match" - but the bolt is not even by the same maker as is the receiver - a Remington made bolt in an Eddystone receiver. Might be totally appropriate for a WWII re-build - however, wondering how the US military would have kept track of that?
 
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One of the first, if not the first, rifles that required standardized specs from all manufacturers. Everything from WRA/ERA/RE was to be made to specific tolerances and drawings so every part would interchange regardless of manufacturer. Therefore S/N were not required on any part other then the receiver.
 
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Sounds plausible. I have read the same three makers struggled for first couple years of WWI to achieve that in their production of P14 for Great Britain - but no actual blueprints involved in those contracts, and none (especially Winchester) seemed willing to change their product to match up to the other guys'. However, US military must have came at that issue differently, in later part of WWI - since so much problem at Springfield Armoury with the 1903 Springfields, the US military must have "put the hammer down" on the E, R and W production. Never did have to be "perfect" - just had to be "good enough for government work" - I will go with that...

FYI - "The US Enfield" by Ian Skinnerton - p. 64 - "The final drawings of the new .30 U.S. Model 1917 rifle were in the hands of the contractors by August 18 (1917), although complete interchangeability between all the components from the three contractors was never attained."
 
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A WW2 Canadian armorer told me that the Canadian P14s were shipped with the bolts out of the rifles, with bolts in separate crates.

he said the P14 bolts were numbered, but it was deemed too difficult to try to marry up each rifle with its bolt.

he said he and others had the job of fitting the bolts to each rifle, re-stamping a serial number on the bolt and adjusting headspace, if required.

I no longer have a P14. Do Canadian P-14s have force matched bolts?

Do other P-14s have matching bolts?
 
I have a number of P-14 here, but not certain that they are Canadian - no C-Broad Arrow on them, or, at least, none left on them - the "matching" P14's have serial numbers in a number of places - receiver, barrel, front face of rear sight, bolt handle and one "E" stock has the same "matching" serial number in the barrel channel in the wood stock. But can not be sure any were Canadian.
 
I have never seen a Canadian P-14. Canada used cut down Sniders for Drill, equipped The Quebec Home guard with 1871/84 mausers, had long lees from the Boer War, a ton of Ross rifles after 1917 and the SMLE later.. WWII we had the M1917.

Here is a QHG M1871/84 mauser..

C2087-03.jpg
 
Thinking - a bit curious - the P14's were made by three factories in USA on contract to Great Britain, during first few years of WWI - none made before or after. So, for Canada to receive some in WWII, must have been from Great Britain?? My books here do not really say - as if the bolts were stamped with rifle's serial number, at the USA factories, because it was a British requirement, but I just assumed that all were then shipped to Great Britain, as per the contract? I had also read that Great Britain had substantial re-build / re-fit program for their stored WWI P-14's, during WWII - so various components, like stocks, were made in Great Britain during WWII - so are not E, W or R made stocks, and perhaps some other parts. Those WWII stocks did not have the inletting for the forearm volley sights either, that the WWI production all did, so could be mistaken to be M1917 stocks - which did not have the volley sights either..
 
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Do not know. Would not be surprising in the WWII commotion that Great Britain sent P14's to Canada - quite sure they had shifted over pretty completely to their Lee Enfield No. 1 and No. 4 as their "first line" battle rifle - just pure conjecture on my part that the P14's might have been allocated for "home use" there and within "the colonies" - they did, after all, use the same 303 British ammo. And, I have an "R" (I think?) stock from a M1917 (30-06) stamped with "RCAF" and "C - Broad Arrow", so those M1917 were here for sure!!!
 
"Defending the Dominion" Edgecombe lists the only Cdn P14s as 55 in WW1, 2 T rifles in 1924 and 25 purchased in 1936. The 25 were for rifle teams since that is the first year the P14 was approved for Bisley. About 100,000 Us M17s were bought c1940-1.
 
Back to the USA M1917 - no number on bolts - does it sound correct that it did not matter to them - any would fit "close enough"? I am curious, since Britain and Canada very much about marking and re-marking for keeping bolt with receivers. The one example of straight handle bolt Swede M96 here, has 3 digits stamped on bolt handle, so seems to have been a thing with them as well - at least for some years - that bolt number does not "match" to the 1911 receiver, but the headspace gauges and bolt lug bearing says that bolt fits fine. (allowances made that Swede military gauges were not the same as current SAAMI gauges...)
 
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Back to my story from the armorer who had to match bolts. I can't recall if it was M14s or P17s he was talking about. He was Canadian Army. he said there was 3 large shipments. West East and Ontario.
 
Ganderite - some evidence given above that there were never many P14 in military service in Canada. Could not have been M14, since not even issued to USA until late 1950's, after the 7.62 NATO was invented, but evidently a good slug of Model of 1917 rifles came here - and could likely only have come from USA? Your acquaintance is recalling the bolts had been previously marked by somebody - but sounds like were being re-fitted and marked (or re-marked) for Canadian use. Some evidence I read that US military took M1917 with them to Europe during WWI- rifles were exchanged in Britain, so must have been some stores of Model of 1917 (30-06) in Britain - so could have come to Canada from there, as well?
 
Ganderite said:
Back to my story from the armorer who had to match bolts. I can't recall if it was M14s or P17s he was talking about. He was Canadian Army. he said there was 3 large shipments. West East and Ontario.
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I believe the Model 1917 rifles were purchased from the US , to free up the SMLE rifles for the army , the Model 1917 were issued to the Air Force for guarding and parades ,
 
x westie said:
I believe the Model 1917 rifles were purchased from the US , to free up the SMLE rifles for the army , the Model 1917 were issued to the Air Force for guarding and parades ,
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I have heard that the RCAF had some P-17s (3006) Red stripe on rifle and on the ammo box.

BUT, my friend was Army. Doubt that they would receive and process RCAF rifles.
 
Potashminer said:
I have a number of P-14 here, but not certain that they are Canadian - no C-Broad Arrow on them, or, at least, none left on them - the "matching" P14's have serial numbers in a number of places - receiver, barrel, front face of rear sight, bolt handle and one "E" stock has the same "matching" serial number in the barrel channel in the wood stock. But can not be sure any were Canadian.
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P14 is also S/N under the rear sight.
Bolt/receivers/barrel/and rear sight were the places.
 
Potashminer said:
Ganderite - some evidence given above that there were never many P14 in military service in Canada. Could not have been M14, since not even issued to USA until late 1950's, after the 7.62 NATO was invented, but evidently a good slug of Model of 1917 rifles came here - and could likely only have come from USA? Your acquaintance is recalling the bolts had been previously marked by somebody - but sounds like were being re-fitted and marked (or re-marked) for Canadian use. Some evidence I read that US military took M1917 with them to Europe during WWI- rifles were exchanged in Britain, so must have been some stores of Model of 1917 (30-06) in Britain - so could have come to Canada from there, as well?
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They could have arrived under lend lease...a lot of material came through Canada, or sent to Canada for domestic use here. Thats why we had P40 fighters on the Canadian west coast when our air force flew Spitfires overseas. M1917 rifles would make sense.

I think the M14 reference was a P14 typo...
 
Canada obtained by purchase c100,000 M1917s by purchase direct from US and A of America. These were issued to all branches of the armed forces except the overseas Army. In Oct 1943 98,587 M17s were serviceable in Canada and avilaable. Post war large numbers were given to allies notably Denmark as the M51 rifle. Some of these were still on issue in Greenland into the 21st century.
 
Very good green. You are a gent who actually researched before he wrote. Rare on this site as most often its speculation. If you look at the appendix on page 152 you find the most known P-14 serial numbers are rather early. It is also believed that they were all Eddystone manufacture and may have been trialled but rejected as a service rifle for an unknown reason. I honestly didn't see the spot where 2 No.3 Mk I*(W) (T) rifles made it to Canada but I can support that as I have an original 1921 manual with Canadian markings. Also there is a photograph of a Canadian sniper in Italy in a book with a Warner and Swazey scope on an Eddystone P-14. As far as fitting bolts there were 2 variations of P-14-Mk I and Mk I* which are not necessarily bolt interchangeable. That's my 2 cents. JOHN
 
green said:
Canada obtained by purchase c100,000 M1917s by purchase direct from US and A of America. These were issued to all branches of the armed forces except the overseas Army. In Oct 1943 98,587 M17s were serviceable in Canada and avilaable. Post war large numbers were given to allies notably Denmark as the M51 rifle. Some of these were still on issue in Greenland into the 21st century.
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I have a nice example of a M1917 which came from Denmark, very accurate.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/573595-Enfield-Model-1917-(P-17)-experts-needed
 
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