Quickest and most efficient load dev technique?

[Munkey1973]

There is no need to practice more before you come out. Best way to learn is by coming out and shooting a match, guys are always willing to help you out once you're there. Being able to shoot on e-targets and having wind flags you will be able to learn alot in a short period of time. Hope to see you out there sometime.

You're absolutely right.
You and rest of the experienced members are always willing to coach new members as well as each other.
I don't ever recall seeing anybody judging by others on either their prior level of experience or the price tag of their gear.

 

[MartyK2500]

Perception vs reality are always 2 seperate things.
In my previous years I was very active in IPSC, lot’s of guys we’re intimidated to come and join us.
And when someone did, we did everything in our power to be helpful and inclusive.

By joining Fclass once Connaught reopens, I am looking forward and hoping that this sense of community is also a standard in Fclass.

 

[titch--]

Agreed regarding finding the flat spot.
I have been running the 200 MKs 2nd gen for my third season now.
Despite a piss-poor performance in judging wind changes this past weekend at Nokomis, I think I've had reasonable success with these 200 MKs given that I have only 5 years in F T/R.


I have flat spots at the 41.8 grn Varget and another with 43.0 Varget.
After 43.2 I am starting to compress loads in my fireformed 308 Lapua Palma cases.
As luck (maybe science ?) would have it, my ES with 43 Varget are around 7-9 fps on most 15 round strings..... BTW at 43.0 I am doing 2,660 fps with my 30 inch Kreiger 1:9.

I also agree that seat depth testing comes second after finding the best charge weight.

I have to disagree, however, that you test in increments of 0.003 depths.... IMO this is where you will burn up components needlessly.

For long pointy bullets (or any bullets for that matter) I follow something similar to what Berger recommends for tuning their VLDs.....my exception is that I generally never do any kind of seating Jam.
I've never had a gun (chamber) that has ever seemed like a Jam .... they all have grouped like absolute sh#te.

https://bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/

After I found 43 varget as my go-to charge, I loaded 5 rounds (Berger recommends 6) of each at :
0.000 on the lands ...
0.010 jump ...
0.020 jump...
0.030 jump
0.040 jump
0.050 jump

Just like Berger has stated in their VLD article -one of these groups will (it really WILL) be way better than all of the others.

In my case, it was 0.030 jump.

So the next range trip I then made 5 more rounds @ 0.025 ... 0.030 ... 0.035
I had observed that 0.025 and the 0.030 were very similar in group size...... so I took a point in between these two "sweet spots" and now my go-to seating depth is 0.028

I know of 2 other guys that use the 200 MKs that compete here in Saskatchewan F T/R and they are both around the 0.030 jump.

Another thing that I have overserved regarding 2nd gen 200 MK is that Sierra really means it when they recommend a 1:9 twist..... I have a sneaking suspicion that most guys who have experimented with this projectile and had a bad experience were trying to use 1:10 or slower twist rates.... might be fine for Berger 200s but now the Sierrra's.

Those other guys shooting the 200s have about FPS as you do? Just wondering if they like a certain speed. thx

 

[Maple57]

Perception vs reality are always 2 seperate things.
In my previous years I was very active in IPSC, lot’s of guys we’re intimidated to come and join us.
And when someone did, we did everything in our power to be helpful and inclusive.

By joining Fclass once Connaught reopens, I am looking forward and hoping that this sense of community is also a standard in Fclass.

F Class is a game where I have met some of the nicest people in my life and most of my best friends to this day. You can expect to learn from shared information from guys who don't want to win because they hid some secret sauce from you. They want you to know what they know so the win means something.

To win against people who don't know how to shoot is a hollow victory, so they tend to be forthcoming with open conversation about what works and doesn't.

You will learn more about precision shooting from F Class in a single season than a lifetime in any other shooting sport. Don't discount the TR guys while you are there. Lots of experience out there.

I hope to see you at Connaught one day soon Marty.

 

[Munkey1973]

Those other guys shooting the 200s have about FPS as you do? Just wondering if they like a certain speed. thx

I know that the one of the other guys has his (2,650 fps) velocity very close to mine (2,660 fps).
I think uses Lapua Palma brass as well, but I don't know what he uses for power & primer.... I use Varget and CCI BR 4

 

[Lead hammer]

There is no need to practice more before you come out. Best way to learn is by coming out and shooting a match, guys are always willing to help you out once you're there. Being able to shoot on e-targets and having wind flags you will be able to learn alot in a short period of time. Hope to see you out there sometime.

Thanks for the encouragement. I would like to come out eventually.
I do not have a good spotting scope, can I get by with an old crappy one out there?

 

[Munkey1973]

Thanks for the encouragement. I would like to come out eventually.
I do not have a good spotting scope, can I get by with an old crappy one out there?

I can't comment about other ranges that F class, but seeing someone use a spotting scope at all is rarity on ours.
Usually if a spotting scope is used at Northstar, its by a competitor who is spectating while another relay is shooting.

Spotting scopes were already somewhat rare before we switched to ShotMarker electronic targets.... and they certainty are now.

So you'd be fine to just leave the spotting scope at home. If you have a quality touch screen tablet, then for sure bring that.... we have a few loaners (but they are small)

 

[BCBRAD]

I've experimented with various distances off the lands.

Nothing conclusive though.

With the use of Quick Load and accurate weights and measurements, the differences in velocity , therefore pressure can be seen.

To that end tuning is done with powder charge. Jump is at magazine length or 10-15 thousands off.

The competitive loads are on an OCW and OBT, doesn't really have much to do with jump, as long as it is known what the jump is.

So typically a model is produced with a predicted velocity, load 5 rounds and shoot them across the LabRadar, average these 5 velocities (the lower the ES the better it is for accuracy of the model).

Now adjust the burn rate (Ba) so the velocities line up , predicted to actual. Once that is done adjust powder charge to get on an OBT for your barrel length.

This modelled and tweaked load is now shot over the chronograph for many rounds under a lot of different conditions and distances, past 1000 yards.

This process works well, and has put me on the podium once in a while.

 

[Lead hammer]

I can't comment about other ranges that F class, but seeing someone use a spotting scope at all is rarity on ours.
Usually if a spotting scope is used at Northstar, its by a competitor who is spectating while another relay is shooting.

Spotting scopes were already somewhat rare before we switched to ShotMarker electronic targets.... and they certainty are now.

So you'd be fine to just leave the spotting scope at home. If you have a quality touch screen tablet, then for sure bring that.... we have a few loaners (but they are small)

Thanks for the info, Ipad should work.

 

[titch--]

Rgr thanks

I did a quick load dev lupua LRP cci 250s and varget. Dont even know where I wrote it all down. lol I usually put my loads up on my whiteboard, but not for this one I guess.

Sorry Marty for the lil derail. cheers

 

[MartyK2500]

F Class is a game where I have met some of the nicest people in my life and most of my best friends to this day. You can expect to learn from shared information from guys who don't want to win because they hid some secret sauce from you. They want you to know what they know so the win means something.

To win against people who don't know how to shoot is a hollow victory, so they tend to be forthcoming with open conversation about what works and doesn't.

You will learn more about precision shooting from F Class in a single season than a lifetime in any other shooting sport. Don't discount the TR guys while you are there. Lots of experience out there.

I hope to see you at Connaught one day soon Marty.

Can't wait to get to it, also look forward meeting you there!
I may have a strong french accent, I sure cannot hide my origins, but I do love to talk about rifle shooting/reloading as much as I can.

 

[MartyK2500]

Today I tried an OCW 100 yards powder tune.
I had not tried that in a long time, these past 2 years I always tune at 200M, even powder charges.

Anyhow I will have to make another one and try higher charges.
I usually don't go higher than 38.6gn, but I noticed zero pressure signs as I was jamming less than usual (jam +20 jump today) for the powder test.

Velocities are all over the place, I have a feeling that 39.2/39.4 is where the sweet spot lies.

BTW, this is a proven rifle with a proven load.
I just ignore everything I know about my recipe, and trying from scratch using this OCW 100 and then bullet seat 200.
I never load dev'd using a chrono, so I cannot wait to compare new load result with old load result.
The best end result of 2 techniques is what I'll try for my FTR, which Insite arms just dropped in the mail!!!

 

[Munkey1973]

38.4 looks real nice on paper... little vertical dispersion and 1 fps ES for speed is looking promising.

Very odd how 37.8 has the best vertical... yet the worst for velocity extreme spread.

What powder are you using Marty?

 

[MartyK2500]

Just a few comments to add...
My actual flat load 200M tuned is right at 38.6gn with a JAM-10 seating.
Never had extremely nice numbers while shooting that load, but it has often grouped better than 1/3 moa 5 shot groups at 200M.

38.4gn is missing a shot btw.
The actual downside of using a labradar when sharing a range.
Sometimes I wish I had magneto speed instead, but then I would have POI shifts, seems like short of shooting on private land there’s no solution to that one.

H4350.
Which “seems” hotter than previous lots, or my bore is tighter.
As at 39.0gn I am reaching velocities other peeps get at 39.8gn if the forums say true.

Last detail, I am 100% confident in my today’s shooting routine, without sounding cocky I would be much surprised there would be shooter error.
My short handgun session afterwards confirmed I was steady and focused today!

 

[Lead hammer]

38.0-02, just looking at the target shows same poi. The ES between the two is not similar unfortunately. That could be a low node with seating depth change possibly.

 

[Maple57]

Marty... Looking at your target there... See how the POI is shifting lower as the powder charge is increased?

37.2 grains is stringing because the barrel is in the sweep part of the cycle... mid oscillation. You dont want to be there.

While 38.4 grains looks tempting because its a small group... It still looks transitional to me. That indicates something about the harmonic state.

If your pressures are not too high at 39.0 grains, I would focus on that myself. Or maybe 38.2 because groups were good on either side of it.

The low velocity spread at 38.4 is interesting, but its just a small sample. I would test larger number of rounds to re-confirm.

 

[MartyK2500]

Thanks for the load analysis.
Going back Saturday with the same rifle and load length,
Will go from 38.2 up to 39.4, and look for the higher node to see what gives!

 

[MartyK2500]

Just got my first Fclass rifle in.
I know I shouldn't try to develop a load when the barrel is brand spanking new, but did give a go at it anyways to keep busy for it's initial break in.
I just cleaned it before going, shot 30 rounds of it, will clean it again tonight, and it's pretty much broken in now!

None of these loads will be usable, much too low velocities.
At least, I will have a starting point next visit.
I wanted to start low as I didn't know what to expect pressure wise with this unknown to me rifle and new bullet.
So far it's looking good, it seems to want to shoot.

My only concern is in regard with the chamber.
With a 20 thou jump, the portion of 308 of my bullet (as in not the boat tail) is not even 1/3 into the neck portion of the brass, I find this concerning.
Either I will end up with lot's of jump, or a bullet barely inserted into the brass.
I am new to a single feed rifle, and don't knw what to think of this one.
Maybe the Berger 200.20x has more bearing surface from bullet base to ogive?

On my target I am missing first group, seems like I have lost some of my touch with bore sighting, took me 6 shots to be perfectly zero instead of the anticipated 3...

 

[Unholysavage]

The actual downside of using a labradar when sharing a range.
Sometimes I wish I had magneto speed instead, but then I would have POI shifts, seems like short of shooting on private land there’s no solution to that one.

Highly recommend a recoil activated trigger (RAT) for your Labradar from Tac Canada. Since getting a RAT mine has registered every single shot, and it hasn't registered anyone shooting beside me. Essential accessory for the LR in my opinion.

 

[MartyK2500]

Thanks for the heads up, TAC Canada is a local and he has bedded a rifle of mine in the past, just read about the RAT and sure looks like a must have accessory when sharing a line!