slow death of the 40?

I keep seeing this rumor that 9mm is more effective because "modern bullet design". I'm confused...what is this new wonder bullet and why cant they put one on the .40? The .40 is wider and has much more energy as we should all know.

.40 will live on since some of us can see past the bs.
 
Tomasaurus said:
I keep seeing this rumor that 9mm is more effective because "modern bullet design". I'm confused...what is this new wonder bullet and why cant they put one on the .40? The .40 is wider and has much more energy as we should all know.

.40 will live on since some of us can see past the bs.
Click to expand...

You are confused. By modern you are talking pre-1960 vs post 1960 for starters. The last 30 years or so we have seen the development of different bullets that expand quicker, and retain their weight better and fly faster. If you are really interested in the subject do some research the information is out there and Google is your friend.

To be clear we are talking the difference between .355" vs .401" or 1MM in diameter. Most 9MM pistols have higher capacity magazines. Note I said higher not High Capacity.

The 40 cal was developed when the 10MM was found to be to difficult for most to handle the recoil and the size of the guns by the FBI. At the time the 9MM FMJ had had thought to have performed poorly in the Miami shootout back in the day.

None of the above is meant to be a definitive reason for the rise and fall of the 10MM, 40 cal or 9MM. Your research though will touch on each of the above comments I am sure.

The 40 is in decline. If you like it shoot it. If all you want to do is argue why it should remain top dog, feel free. I doubt your arguments will move the needle much though.

Take Care

Bob
ps You might well find it just comes down to cost of 9MM ammo vs .40cal.
pps Some of us think the world is flat, vaccines are bad and Donald Trump is the Mosiah....some of us are not very bright as well.
 
Canuck44 said:
You are confused. By modern you are talking pre-1960 vs post 1960 for starters. The last 30 years or so we have seen the development of different bullets that expand quicker, and retain their weight better and fly faster. If you are really interested in the subject do some research the information is out there and Google is your friend.

To be clear we are talking the difference between .355" vs .401" or 1MM in diameter. Most 9MM pistols have higher capacity magazines. Note I said higher not High Capacity.

The 40 cal was developed when the 10MM was found to be to difficult for most to handle the recoil and the size of the guns by the FBI. At the time the 9MM FMJ had had thought to have performed poorly in the Miami shootout back in the day.

None of the above is meant to be a definitive reason for the rise and fall of the 10MM, 40 cal or 9MM. Your research though will touch on each of the above comments I am sure.

The 40 is in decline. If you like it shoot it. If all you want to do is argue why it should remain top dog, feel free. I doubt your arguments will move the needle much though.

Take Care

Bob
ps You might well find it just comes down to cost of 9MM ammo vs .40cal.
pps Some of us think the world is flat, vaccines are bad and Donald Trump is the Mosiah....some of us are not very bright as well.
Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe that a bullet with more energy and more surface frontal surface is less effective, Unless we can agree that it is a trade off between the "power" of .40 vs the typically higher capacity of 9mm. I am talking personal preference here, not saying the FBI should field it even if the USP handles it quite well.

As long as .40 can perform its niche I dont see it disappearing off the shelves. Personally I like having a lot more pop with reasonable recoil, whether than translates to a significant effectiveness increase in the field I admit can not say for certain. Price I agree is going to be a big factor, especially in the upcoming days.

You take care as well.
Thomas
 
The problem, all other issues aside is it has a very small niche market. With the Military and LEO market served by the 9MM where is it's niche. OK, IPSC Standard Division for the civilian market, where else? The 40 will be on our shelves as long as folks own the guns that shoot it.

I'll use it in my 10MM revolver for practice ammo. I do have an M&P Pro in .40cal but have not shot it in a few years. I can put it in a stock I own and use it in PC Competitions until Turdo decides such an assembly threatens the nations peace and bans them as well.

Take Care

Bob
 
Funny thing with 40's... they just don't take off... like a middleweight fighter... they ain't a bruiser like the heavyweights or a fast mover like the fly weights... the public always relegates them to the bottom of the like list.
Rewind about 140 year and 40's still never really took of. A niche gun for unique people LoL.
What's not to like about a 38-40 ( .401 diameter)... for most of the same reasons? They still never knocked either the 38 or 45 off the table. Almost like a good Operator would see the advantages... but Average Joe still saw the advantage in running a more common caliber.
41 LC, 41 magnum... same sort of deal.
More zang in a smaller gun. Medium frame running a powerhouse round that challenged the big boys quite handily. Or put it in a large frame and it was nice to shoot as the extra weight made it more manageable.
I'm a wheel gun man for the most part. But I saw this and had a snoop. Bizarre that it's a modern semiautomatic that is still in the same niche.
It's like a gun with 'Small man's syndrome'...Doing it with more gusto than the big boys...still small though.
Underutilized in a large frame... but a little bit lively in a medium frame. Just struggles a bit.
 
tokguy just a comment the .41Long and Short Colt cartridges were .386 in diameter. The barrels varied quite a bit as did the cylinders. Colt could really never make up there minds on the cartridge. I just had my .41LC converted to 38 spl. or 38Long if you prefer. The old 41LC would be best be remembered as a red light cartridge (.41 Short Colt} and as a decent LEO Revolver for it's day.

Take Care

Bob
ps I have .42lcmolds, dies and special tools for someone with money to spend.
 
Canuck44 said:
tokguy just a comment the .41Long and Short Colt cartridges were .386 in diameter. The barrels varied quite a bit as did the cylinders. Colt could really never make up there minds on the cartridge. I just had my .41LC converted to 38 spl. or 38Long if you prefer. The old 41LC would be best be remembered as a red light cartridge (.41 Short Colt} and as a decent LEO Revolver for it's day.

Take Care

Bob
ps I have .42lcmolds, dies and special tools for someone with money to spend.
Click to expand...

Allow me a polite and respectful retort.
I have and shoot 38 LC, 41 LC ( been shooting that about 15 years now) and 45 LC. All in similar platforms. 1889 (medium frame; 41 caliber in that it's a .405 dia bb...started at .385 but still the HB bumps to bbl diameter), 1892's ( medium frame) in 38 and New Service ( LARGE frame)]in 45 LC.
So I'm not prejudiced against the 41 LC...heck I can go pop soup cans off my deck...how do you not like that?
Same arguments at work though. Yep; handily kicked the 38 spl's butt...but lively to shoot.
You converted your's to 38... classic example there.
Niche cartridge for specialists who don't really the BS of running it because it makes more power than 38 ( re 9mm), but hey; they are specialist's...they can afford to put up with the BS because it's a very potent cartridge. Bill the Kid ran a 41 LC it's said...Classic Little Man right there.
Now that the Luddites have chimed in on it... Modern auto shooter's... what say to my points? Do they not sort of mirror than angst that the 40 / 10mm is going through now?
 
I think the biggest advantage of .40S&W is that it can be fired from most 10mm hand guns. That duel use gives an owner some nice flexibility.

The biggest disadvantage of .40S&W is that ammo costs substantially more than 9mm.
 
Come on now I shot my Great Grand dads old Colt until the forcing cone finally cracked. The 1892 I have was hardly used over the 126 years it has been in our family. 3.3 gr of Unique under the old Ideal 194 gr heel based bullet was hardly a Magnum power house. I used the hollow based design as well. It shot reasonably well. My gun guns barrel remained .386 with much larger cylinder throats. Both barrel and cylinders are now gone. I enjoyed shooting the gun using some of Grand dads factory balloon head rounds. I never tried to push the old gun. I know the cartridge in it's day in the right revolver was used in shooting competitions. It just was not the case with the 1892 New Navy.

The gun was popular in the South Eastern US but really never caught on. Grand dad told me the Vancouver used the cartridge for awhile but I have never been able to confirm that. Perhaps if Colt had stayed with one set of drawings for the cartridge instead of wondering about thing might have been different.

Take Care
Bob
 
B said:
I tend to think in simple terms sometimes. Since pretty well every duty cartridge is close enough to the others as to render the small differences irrelevant I default to the cheapest one. I am not against owning a .40, if it's all I had to carry I wouldn't be upset. I really don't see the point though. I shoot 10mm and if I wanted .40 type power levels I would just put less powder in my reloads.
Click to expand...

In Fact, standard factory 10mm loads are virtually identical to .40S&W standard factory loads (look at the rated muzzle velocity and energy, keeping in mind the 10mm is usually measured with a 1" longer barrel). It isn't until you look at "hot" 10mm loads that you see the increased power of 10mm.
 
Andronicus said:
In Fact, standard factory 10mm loads are virtually identical to .40S&W standard factory loads (look at the rated muzzle velocity and energy, keeping in mind the 10mm is usually measured with a 1" longer barrel). It isn't until you look at "hot" 10mm loads that you see the increased power of 10mm.
Click to expand...

Factory 10mm ranges from .40sw level to balls out 10mm level. Most of what is in Canada at least manages an extra 100fps or so over .40 but yeah, it's typically lame.
 
Canuck 44; that's because a 1892 is a cobbled together mess. Three lockup systems, none of which is really successful?
If my 89 wasn't in an antique caliber...it's worse yet... not Colt's best moment. How they went from the 1873 to the 1877/ 1889 is beyond me.
Back to the meat of it now.
Look at it this way. You are a LEO somewhere between then and now. Because the angst has always been here.
If you were just performing routine tasks... umm 38 special / 9mm will suffice. It's lighter, handier and will likely get you through most situations.
Fairly high probability that you may need a potent gun but not 100 % sure? 41 / 10mm ( of whatever particular flavor you like...38-40 / 10 mm are both potent packages) is going to give you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that you got a damn potent gun to deal with a situation if needed.
100 % chance? F**k this... I'm going to grab that 45... I ain't Billy the Kid or John Wick... I shoot someone, they are gonna go down!
The theory of stopping power is highly contested in some circles... but the reality is...if there was a 9mm, a 10 mm and a 45 ACP laying on the table in front of you...there is a flurry of shots outside the door? Which one are you going to pick up?
I think we pretty much know which one you are going to pick up.
3 scenerios
Low probability...self defence; 38 / 9mm.
A professional doing hazardous tasks; 41 / 10mm
Real deal... I'm going to be entering a dangerous situation where I'm going to potentially shoot someone... it's a 45. No question about it.
For what it's worth...which ain't much;)
 
Andronicus said:
In Fact, standard factory 10mm loads are virtually identical to .40S&W standard factory loads (look at the rated muzzle velocity and energy, keeping in mind the 10mm is usually measured with a 1" longer barrel). It isn't until you look at "hot" 10mm loads that you see the increased power of 10mm.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. My factory .40 is 180 grain flat point 1,000 fps. I used to replicate this load for my .40s, 180 grain truncated cone .401 Lee mold bullets over TiteGroup (forgot the grains).

Since I discovered the same 180 bullet over 7.4 (7.5 max) grains Longshot gives 1,150 fps, this has become my standard .40 load. Its still well within maximum SAAMI pressure.

It is snappy, accurate as any 9mm load I have, its painful to my skinny hands, but I love it.

In terms of Power Factor (209), this Longshot load is equal to or higher than .45 +P 230gn JHP or .357Mag 158gn JHP.

Is the .40 dying a slow death? Maybe. I just hope it dies a slow painful death like the .38 special. Means more brass for me.

Thanks to NB Rifles for catching the Longshot grains error.
 
Last edited:
Since I discovered the same 180 bullet over 4.7 grains Longshot gives 1,150 fps, this has become my standard .40 load. Its still

I think you had a typo there easyrider604--- 7.4grains maybe? I bought a CZ75 TSO last year in .40 S&W I shoot that pistol better than my Shadow 2 9mm or several 1911's I have. I liked the TSO so well I bought another in 9mm, haven't shot the 9 much yet but so far I would rather shoot the .40
 
NB Rifles said:
Since I discovered the same 180 bullet over 4.7 grains Longshot gives 1,150 fps, this has become my standard .40 load. Its still

I think you had a typo there easyrider604--- 7.4grains maybe? I bought a CZ75 TSO last year in .40 S&W I shoot that pistol better than my Shadow 2 9mm or several 1911's I have. I liked the TSO so well I bought another in 9mm, haven't shot the 9 much yet but so far I would rather shoot the .40
Click to expand...

Hello NB, You are right. Thanks much for catching and letting me know. Edited my post above.

Like you, I like shooting my .40s more than my 9s, except brass gets lost and rarer to find on the range floor. .40 has its followers. My NP40 and Ruger P91 are ideal and accurate .40 pistols. FNS40 is great if you like polymer.
 
Last edited:
fenceline said:
Projectile ballistics and performance have come a long way since the 40 first came out. 9mm can do the same now that 40 can, is cheaper, more easily available, is more shootable due to less recoil which usually means better accuracy between shota and generally has a higher capacity in guns that come in 9 or 40. Think of the glock 22 vs the 17. 15 vs 17 rounds. That's 6 extra rounds on a 3 mag setup for those that carry day in and day out in that fashion.

At the end of the day, the only thing 40 has more of than 9 is cost per round.

And I love shooting the 40.
Click to expand...

I'm more accurate with my competitor in .44 mag than my Shadow 2... Maybe its the trigger on the .44
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom