More to ammo behaviour than MV?

The target I posted is the end result... the final confirmation groups of 2 yrs worth of bullet testing and bullet design... all the way out to 1000yds under competition conditions. This is not a trivial 2 group demo. I suspect that I shot over 1000rds in development... I feel that is a decent sample size.

for those still following along, the error of a lab grade milligram scale would usually be +/- 0.0001 or 0.0002 grs of powder. Yes, it can adjust for 1 kernel of varget.

to get a real world sense of the error in powder charges on a manf scale, take a powder measure (thrower) and dump some pistol powder and weigh it. If you know someone that loads 9mm on a progressive, just grab a dozen charges and weight them. See what the variation is.... it is not huge but it does vary (pistol powders tend to meter very well).

Now extend that to a process using 1/4 the amount of powder (maybe less?) but produced at how many rds per minute..... With so little powder, any error in significant.

And that is going to show up on the target.... there is nothing you can do to analyse the ammo before shooting to predict or sort out the zingers. Typically, the more expensive, the lower the chance of a surprise in the box.... but there are good lots and "expensive" lots

Jerry
 
While testing CCI MiniMags both HP and RN, when velocity is really consistent groups at 100 yards will be smaller than 1".
Keep shooting and overall the groups will expand significantly as the velocities run up and down.
Five rounds mean nothing, ten is better but the proof is in five 10-round groups . . . shoot the whole box!
If the grouping is consistent there may be little need for a chrono.
The chrono has an application when you determine a velocity your rifle likes and you can test around those preferences.
Consistency will rarely be found in American made ammo.
 
Today I had some Midas + with me so I tested it with the chronograph. In the past, this lot has been inconsistent in the groups that it produces, but it is usually better than the Center X shown previously. This ammo had an ES of 33 fps (1025 fps - 1058 fps) with an average MV of 1039 fps. The SD was 7 fps.

These result were better than those with the CX. MV spread for each five shot group doesn't guarantee an outcome. But I'd wager that more good groups are produced with ammo that has a smaller ES than with a wider one. I shudder to think what the results would look like with wider spreads within each group of five rounds, something that would be not only possible but likely with lesser ammo that is more likely to have a disappointing ES and, worse, a poor SD.

In any case, this ammo is still what I'd consider "inconsistent" in that there are results that shouldn't be there with consistent ammo, for example the third and fourth groups on the top row (left to right) and the second on the bottom. The latter had the most obvious and egregious example of inconsistency.

It can be noted that it's shooters lore that heavier barrels are less responsive to the vibrations that are produced with every shot. It's possible, indeed, very likely that a slimmer barreled rifle would produce very different results.

Again, this isn't intended to prove anything. One box of ammo doesn't provide enough information.

 
You're welcome, emerson.

Your experience mirrors mine and I often wonder how those shooters with custom-barreled rifles, such as the few who have succeeded with the 1/4" challenge, fare by comparison. With the ammo that's typically available, do they get unpredictable results or do they consistently get consistent results?
 
Due to range closures I haven’t been able to stretch out the Eley Tenex and match I have, although at 50M the Tenex was pretty impressive. I’m saving for a long 1:12 IBI barrel for my T1X. Hopefully with match level ammo my cone of group unpredictability will be a bit smaller. 1 small step toward a more consistent system is the goal.
 
There are Lapua and Eley factory tour videos with ammo testing in their tunnels/test rigs. Some even show testing for competitors. All electronic targets with target plots and groups calculated. Machine rest shooting

This is for the best of the best.... it is very telling for what Olympic shooters consider.... good enough

You can also get a feel for the lot to lot variations and how they can differ in different rifles.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
There are Lapua and Eley factory tour videos with ammo testing in their tunnels/test rigs. Some even show testing for competitors. All electronic targets with target plots and groups calculated. Machine rest shooting

This is for the best of the best.... it is very telling for what Olympic shooters consider.... good enough
Click to expand...

These kinds of testing facilities aren't only for the best of the best. They're for anyone who wishes to lot test for the best ammo for his rifle. The testing is by appointment and the cost is easily within reach of most shooters. Usually more serious shooters use such services and they have good rifles. It's unlikely that many shooters bother to test relatively inexpensive mass-produced rifles for reasons that should be obvious.

The In the US there are two Lapua testing facilities, one in Arizona and the newest in Ohio. Anyone can go there or send their rifle/barreled action to the facility (with prior arrangements, of course). At Lapua the cost is $50, which will be waived if the customer buys two cases of ammo. If he doesn't buy ammo he will nevertheless see how his rifle performs when shooting from a fixture in a tunnel. The Lapua facilities record the results of the initial ten shot groups on electronic target sensors at both 50 and 100 meters.

Unless there have been changes recently, Canadians .22LR shooters can send their rifles/barreled actions (even pistols) to the Eley testing facilities at Okotoks. I think the pricing is comparable to that of Lapua south of the border. For more details, see h ttps://eley.co.uk/canada-customer-test-range/ One shooter's experience has some details here h ttps://www.allanharding.com/2019/05/testing-eley-ammunition-in-canada.html
 
grauhanen said:
You're welcome, emerson.

Your experience mirrors mine and I often wonder how those shooters with custom-barreled rifles, such as the few who have succeeded with the 1/4" challenge, fare by comparison. With the ammo that's typically available, do they get unpredictable results or do they consistently get consistent results?
Click to expand...

With reputable ammo (RWS, Eley, and Lapua), a random lot will likely produce results as follows with my Custom CZ



Groups over 1/2" are rare, but they still happen from time to time. The above was shot with a tuner, I don't recall if the setting was "dialed in" to that ammo or not. Sans tuner, results are unpredictable similar to what you experience as the next target will demonstrate. I cut off the R-50 groups after two so as not to waste the ammo.

 
The ammunition used to produce these groups was Remington Eley Match. Four lots were tested with the request for velocities in the 1062 range.
The ammunition was tested at 100 yards over wind flags and with this lot, only one of five 10-shot groups exceeded 1".
One of the lots was abandoned after the third group. Another after the fourth.
The ammunition was tested without the tuner and once the order was complete, it was tested at 50 yards with the tuner.
It did not appear the tuner setting could be improved upon for 100 yards/metres.
The score was 600 - 42X and the average of the six 10-shot groups was 0.77".
The rifle is a Remington 40XB with a Lilja barrel smithed by guntech for Eley Match.
While proud of these groups, testing requires a protocol that accurately reflects one lot against another.
While drawing another brick out of the locker the other night there are ten bricks left.
When it is gone there won't be any guilt felt but to start the process over again . . . Call Peter at TSP, order what ever lots are available in case quantities, test and order a case or two.
Currently feeding the Remington an two Coopers and while the Coopers perform well with this lot, they have not been tested with any other lots but it might be prudent to test them in order to preserve the good stuff for the Remington.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...sqhgkbuzd.jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...so6xafitk.jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...7E2D-7304-4BAA-9C0D-8435E2D2E34F_1_201_a.jpeg
 
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horseman2 said:
The ammunition used to produce these groups was Remington Eley Match. Four lots were tested with the request for velocities in the 1062 range.
The ammunition was tested at 100 yards over wind flags and with this lot, only one of five 10-shot groups exceeded 1".
The ammunition was tested without the tuner and once the order was complete, it was tested at 50 yards with the tuner.
It did not appear the tuner setting could be improved upon for 100 yards/metres.
The score was 600 - 42X and the average of the six 10-shot groups was 0.77".
The rifle is a Remington 40XB with a Lilja barrel smithed by guntech for Eley Match.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...sqhgkbuzd.jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...so6xafitk.jpeg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill
Click to expand...

Nice shooting!

It's amazing what the little 22 can do.
 
Thanks for the info, Myke.

horseman2, those are nice results at 100. What do they look like at 50 with and without the tuner?

horseman2 said:
When it is gone there won't be any guilt felt but to start the process over again . . . Call Peter at TSP, order what ever lots are available in case quantities, test and order a case or two.
Click to expand...

That's can be a large order of ammo for testing, many cases if there are more than a few different lots. I wish my pockets were so deep.;)
 
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1800 2050 2150 2175 8175 2043.75

I don't recall shooting it at 50 without the tuner.
The above are scores out of 2500 at our first BR50 shoot in 20 months placing 2nd out of six shooters
It did qualify for five groups under 1/2" but not with this ammo.
 
I can't wait to see the results that happens when these become more popular!

cuttingedgebullets.com/shop/cutting-edge-bullets-product-lines/curx-22lr
 
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