Old School Meets New School- Sheep/ Mountain Rifle
- Thread starter AR15meister
- Start date
I agree, I can’t see this build be on anything else especially if you want the nostalgia of an American sheep gun. I just can’t see it on a platform that wasn’t around half a century ago.
The idea of a dolled up super grade makes me drool.
The Kimber BGR would be a good starter if you want a refined model 70 crf action type with integrated bases, swept bolt handle, thin trigger shoe, nicer bottom metal, featherweight barrel contour and a nice piece of checkered walnut.
- Location
- The Cariboo
I'm curious why you wouldn't want a Mauser action?
I do like the 7X64 Brenneke, an over/under combination gun I have in that caliber and it's really accurate.
you Sir is a troll and i will explain why ... you have certainly a lot of experiences in what you re hunting and i doubt that even combined here we can really help you on that project but i cant wait to see the outcome of the project finished.
one family friend used in whole sheep huntings a 7mm magnum with wooden stock and never was a problem but it was long time ago.
one family friend used in whole sheep huntings a 7mm magnum with wooden stock and never was a problem but it was long time ago.
Makes sense, considering Ralph came here to work under/with Martin/Adolph (now Martin again) in Cranbrook building Hagn rifles. Both do wonderful, amazing work, for those with the coin (and willingness) to pay for it. Ralph is more attuned to delivering fine accuracy than Martin, in my opinion. It was fun dropping into Martin's shop in seeing the difference between the two in how they worked back in those days. Watching Martin take a hatchet to a blank of exhibition grade Turkish walnut "to get rid of the excess wood" was something you'll never forget if you've ever seen it.
One difference these days is that a lot of work on custom rifles gets parted out to somebody else these days i.e. checkering, even though they can do the checkering just as good themselves. Ralf and Martin both part out work now, and I imagine most of the name custom rifle makers probably do the same for economic reasons. Martin is almost 80 now, if he hasn't turned 80 already. If you want a Martin Hagn rifle, you should probably order it sooner than later. All gun makers retire, sooner or later.
Old school vintage sheep and plains game rifles would include rifles by makers like Al Biesen, Al Linden, Maurice Ottmar, Tom Shellhammer, Bill Sukalle, Jerry Fisher, etc on Krag Jørgensen and 1903 as well as Mauser military surplus actions.
I doubt many of them were sub MOA capable rifles - in the romantic vintage era of the 50's, 60's and 70's, those guys were about stalking and taking trophy sheep and plains game hunted on foot, not long distance killing from one peak to the next that required sub MOA precision rifles for 400+ yard shots. From what I recall reading, most of them felt particularly well equipped with a rifle merely capable of one MOA.
A Swarovski or similar scope manufacturer of any flavor would not be or look old school; you may or may not care about that. The ubiquitous classic sheep rifle owned by O'Connor or one of his contemporaries probably wore a Weaver or Leupold, maybe a Redfield or Noske, or the earliest ones even a Lyman. Horror of horrors, many were only 4x magnification; how they managed to kill sheep and goats with only 4x scopes (or less) we can't imagine today.
Bluing and walnut are relatively impervious to the elements with a minimum of forethought and care; the sheep hunters of the classic era proved that for decades - the O'Connor #2 you mentioned is proof of that. Modern coatings like polyurathane for wood and cerokote and other metal finishes might be more impervious, but they certainly aren't going to look classic.
Around here, most of the locals harassing our bighorns and goats in the classic era of my youth, bought more Husqvarna and BSA featherweights than Model 70s. That would include my father and his friends, and then later my brothers and myself and our friends. Probably because as imported working mens' rifles they were less expensive than a Model 70 AND slightly lighter than the Model 70 choices off the shelf, especially after the 1964 changes that Winchester made.
Soooo... anything a custom gunmaker can do to a Model 70's metal, they can also do to a Husqvarna or BSA action. For a minimalist, sleek light action to build a rifle on, in my opinion the Husky's action (and BSA) is hands down nicer than the Winny 70 in the looks department.
This is a Husky that Bill Leeper did nothing special to other than reshaping the bolt handle to a Mannlicher style and rebarreling with a Ron Smith barrel, chambered in 30 Newton (how's that for classic cartridge?). It will put 165 grain bullets doing about 3100 fps into slightly less than a MOA out to at least 300 yards (maximum length of Bill's backyard range) every time, despite the factory stock and no other work done on it:
That's to illustrate it's classic looking, light, and accurate enough for mountain sheep hunting - or antelope hunting if you prefer - with nothing other than being a properly done re-barrel job; a custom gun maker paid to go to town on it could really turn out something light, accurate, and heirloom quality.
So you could build yet another ubiquitous Model 70 based classic sheep rifle (I suspect you're not interested in a Krag or 1903 based action just as you aren't a Mauser). Or look at one of the Husky or BSA actions from back in the early/mid 60's for your platform, or perhaps an also classic looking late 60s/early 70s Sako action like the L61 or L579 which would weigh a bit more to start with.
And if you wanted to be slightly different in the caliber department as well, the 1950s era 7x61 Sharpe & Hart was and is right at home hunting sheep and plains game. The Shultz & Larson and custom rifles I've seen in 7 x 61 Sharpe and Hart were very well done. The 284 Winchester is a 1960's cartridge that was aimed at sheep hunters as well. 140 grain bullets at 3000 fps and 160 grain bullets at around 2800 fps should be able to get your sheep and antelope hunting done.
Of course, you could browse through Jack O'Connor's Outdoor Life columns from the 60's to his retirement in the 70's and his books and see lots of pictures and writings on what the state of the art classic sheep rifle was during those years. His often wrote about about mountain rifles weighing in at 8 lbs flat complete with scope and mounts if I recall correctly -a weight many modern sheep rifles can easily best, and an off the rack Husqvarna or BSA featherweight from the 1960s that Joe Average could afford can best as well, mounted with a Leupold or Weaver scope.
A Hagn based single shot with case hardening in the caliber of your choice with primo Circassian walnut stock by either Hagn or Martini would give you a really light rifle with more barrel length to get velocity out of at the same time (several of the Hagn/Martini rifles I saw in 30/06 had 25" barrels and weighed in at 6 lbs, and felt beautifully balanced). Beautiful as they are, when I think classic mountain rifle, I'm firmly stuck on a light bolt action rifle on a receiver with classic lines, all walnut and blued steel.
You can go in a dozen different directions other than another ubiquitous Model 70 (if you so wish); beauty is in the eye of the sheep hunter... Retail therapy at its finest!
At my age my sheep and goat hunting days are numbered. I can't use my rifle as my excuse: that Husky above (that I bought new circa 1972 or so) that Bill rebarrelled to 30 Newton weighs less than O'Connor's sheep rifle by over a pound, despite the longer barrel he left on it. My legs just aren't what they used to be. No more of that start at the bottom of the mountain in the dark and be up near the top at first light...
pete dobinson
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Courtenay BC.
the kewl kids are runnin 7mm08s
That's as silly as saying hunters would choose a lever action while shooters would choose a bolt action.
7mms in classic, vintage sheep hunting rifles would be 7x57, 280 Remington, 284 Winchester, 7x61 Sharpe & Hart, maybe even 7mm Rem Mag. The 7mm-08s don't qualify.
BTW, who gets to appoint who the kewl kids are? For me, if you're hunting blue sheep in Nepal and Marco Polo sheep in the 'stans... I think you might qualify as one of the kewl kids. Those are tough hunts.
Beaver Skin
CGN Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
And he really knows his way around a M70 - highly recommended.
A current production Model 70 Featherweight would get you 90% of O'Connor's no. 2 rifle. What you would be lacking is the upgraded wood, hand fitting, and higher quality checkering. All the basic elements are there: high, straight comb for scope use, open grip, a forearm that's not too fat nor does it feel skinny in the hand, 22-inch barrel, and reasonable weight. I picked one up in .30/06 recently, and while I haven't shot it much yet, it seems very promising in the accuracy department.
pete dobinson
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Courtenay BC.
A kimber superamerica would also be very nice. Lightweight as well.
- Location
- Steel Town
This thread has really regenerated my desire for a nice Husqvarna 1600 in some sort of classic chambering. I read somewhere that those slick actions are virtually indestructible. However, I would hate to buy one and then have to alter it with a bedding job just to prevent a cracked stock, which I understand are common place in the tang area.
I have three of the Husky models (Model 5000), a Heilstock 30/06 converted to 35 Newton and a 358 Norma Magnum (Model 1641). The thin stocks and light weight of the Huskys would be the ones you would generally think would be candidates for cracking. The 358 Norma Magnum which doesn't really have that much more wood/weight to it should be the prime suspect.
Of all of them, only one had a faint crack develop in the tang, a 30/06 Husky. The rest have not, and I regularly shoot them. Why that one developed that faint start of a crack in the tang (which made my heart stop for a second when I found it) I'm not sure; Bill Leeper who repaired the incipient crack said that the action tang was touching the wood and recoil banging the tang into the stock at that point might have done it. I couldn't find the crack after the repair, but it wasn't much of a crack to begin with.
Our Husqvarna expert here, Baribal, says that cracks are not all that common in the 1600 series you mentioned and are usually due to owners not keeping the guard screws tightened. Another one of the usual suspects here at Gunputz, tjsudbury, says he has over a dozen Husqvarnas including about half a dozen 1600s and not one of them has a crack.
These lightweight, inexpensive little Husqvarna (and BSA Majestic's with the BESA dragon call) featherweight rifles in 30/06, .270, and occasionally 7x57 were old school classic sheep/goat/elk/mouse mountain rifles around here back in the 60's and 70's. You might not be able to afford a Winchester Model 70 featherweight, but you could probably afford a Husqvarna or a BSA...
Old school backpack sheep hunt circa somewhere around 1974 with my inexpensive little off the rack old school Husqvarna mountain rifle (manufactured in 1964)...
I wouldn't let worrying about a potential crack stop me from buying a rifle I was thinking of. I probably wouldn't be bothered by doing a slick bedding job anyways in pursuit of the best accuracy.
