Old School Meets New School- Sheep/ Mountain Rifle
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Yeah, I have a lot of 35mm slides shot back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s with my Pentax Spotmatic while sheep and goat hunting - and elk hunting - with one or the other of the Husqvarnas in the pics. Most of my pics are of the scenery, though. Problem is I just about gagged when I saw the price of a Nikon slide scanner or having it commercially done. I rented a scanner for one day and gave it a try. A few turned out pretty good; the overwhelming majority were pretty poor. Operator error, as the slides still look great run through a projector.
This pic was sheep chasin' with one of my younger brothers up near the Palliser. One of those hunts where we didn't even see a hoof print, much less fur of anything (other than a lynx which laid stretched out on a rock and watched us walk by). But at least it was one of those hunts where the weather was dry and warm.
The last gun show I was at was in 2019, I usually see one or two Huskys at every show that I take a look at to see how they compare to my Husky Platoon. With the current obsession with plastic fantastic, stainless steel, and rifles that can shoot flat enough to kill sometime in the coming week, I'd expect more and more of them to show up for sale as the older guys' legs wear out and they lose interest in mountain hunting.
The ones from back in the 60's and 70's I don't see much are the BSA Majestic featherweights; I think they're even a bit lighter than the Huskys. But that BESA style muzzle brake on the end... didn't do anything but make the rifle even louder. My middle brother has Dad's in 30-06 and it's twin in .270 that one of Dad's sheep hunting buddies gave him after Dad died. I wouldn't cry if my mountain hunting had to be done with a BSA featherweight instead of a Husky featherweight.
Great pics. Come to think of it, I sold one of those BSA featherweights in 7x57 too.
I would have a hard time passing up one in that caliber if somebody put it in front of me. Other than the fact that these days I firmly remind myself that senior citizens that can barely keep the dust shot off the rifles they already own and don't have the legs to hunt seven days a week shouldn't be taking more nice guns out of circulation where they'll just sit unused.
I think classic, decades old hunting rifles that just end up being Gunsafe Queens that are only taken out occasionally to be fondled and dreamed about hunting with are a real tragedy. Their natural habitat should be out hunting, not sitting in a dark gun safe gathering dust and awaiting the estate sale, while their owner gets fat and works on having a jammer, sitting in a Lazy-Boy.
What did you think of that dragon call on the end of that BSA featherweight when you first shot it? My brother had Bill Leeper rebarrel his second BSA featherweight, complete with the BESA style dragon call in the end of the barrel. I'm pretty sure Bill told me he did it properly, so it would actually do a little recoil reduction, not just make a hell of a lot more noise. Those things are LOUD.
Now I'm pretty sure THAT is one thing that would have ensured that Jack O'Connor NEVER would have taken that rifle on any sheep hunt. Or any other hunt for that matter.
Speaking of old school sheep hunting and Jack O'Connor (letter didn't scan well when I did it on the first scanners that came out a few decades ago; should re-scan I guess):
When I met my wife she was a prof at the University of Idaho, and one of her friends in the faculty was Skip Stratton. We got to be casual friends when he discovered I had a thing for fine Lee Enfields - he wrote a few books on military surplus rifles like the Lee-Enfield family. I ended up trading him a Johnson rifle in .270 Winchester for a very nice Ross rifle. He was a great guy to talk and have beers with and it was a bit of a personal loss when he suddenly died.
One day after a few beers in Les's office, while we were talking about sheep hunting, he asked me if I'd like to see Jack O'Connor's hunting gear. It turns out back then (1995), the university had a whole bunch of O'Connor's hunting stuff. It wasn't on display back then (don't know if it is now) - they just had it in a room neatly ordered and laid out. No rifles unfortunately (or if there were rifles there they weren't with the hunting equipment). Sleeping bags, saddles, pack saddles, scabbards, rifle shipping cases, boots, cooking and eating stuff, what looked like a folded up wall tent, tiny tent wood stove, etc. Pretty much all of it with his name or initials neatly lettered on it. And of course, I didn't have a camera with me.
One thing anybody would have noticed that it was all really well used, and well cared for. Some of it to the point you would have been thinking it would be due for replacement soon. There was a whole ROOM full of "old school sheep hunting" to look at and examine; could have loaded it into a truck, bought some food on the way, and headed for the mountains.
One of the first things I did when I got my hands on those Husqvarnas in that gun shop over in Nelson after my safari over to get them, was write Jack O'Connor at Outdoor Life and ask him what he suggested for bullets and loads for mountain hunting for bighorn, elk, and goats in BC as I'd just purchased a short barreled Husky and a .358 Norma Magnum. Didn't really expect an answer from a famous gun writer, of course, but a sheet of paper, envelope and a stamp was pretty cheap in the early 1970's.
Much to my amazement, he actually replied. By the time he did, I already had a load and was hunting, but he actually took time to answer a kid asking about loads. There was two pages; the first was mostly telling me that I probably wouldn't enjoy that featherweight 358 Norma Magnum and I didn't really need it other than maybe hunting the local grizzly bears (little did he know how aggressive the bears would be 50 years later). But as you can see, at the end of the first page and all of the second he actually took the time to detail a whole bunch of bullets and loads chronographed "by me on Vernon D. Speer's Potter Counter Chronograph" for short barreled rifles like my Husky.
I still have that letter, along with the hang tags and owner's manuals (such as they are) that came with those new Husqvarnas. I wonder if I'd have gotten even more if my letter had asked him for information for a Husky in .270 Winchester? He definitely wasn't impressed with a lightweight Husqvarna 358 Norma Magnum...
I still have about 40 of those 250 grain Barnes loads left that he suggested. I took that advice and developed a load from that data for my 30/06 Husky after one fairly exciting (to me at least) encounter I had with a big grumbly bear on a trail through the slide alders. Grumbly bears use them as their highways from one slide to the next. No shots were fired and no pants were filled with poo - but it was close enough that I started putting 250 grainers into the Husky and holding it in my hands when transiting through the alders or just carrying the 358 Norma Mag, also in hands. And still do even more so today.
The recoil in that light rifle with 165 grainers and the hard Husky factory buttplate got your attention a bit (Bill Leeper says it definitely got his attention test firing it after he'd converted it to 30 Newton). But those 250 grain Barnes bullets... that was a lot more recoil than you expected from a 30/06. They definitely got your attention.
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Thanks for the act of kindness, Bill.
However, days 40+ years later, I'm cut like a marshmallow and going sheep/goat/elk hunting in the mountains is a carefully planned deliberate act. Now it's like planning a military campaign with lots of time set aside for getting up the mountain, and then lots of time set aside for getting back. A little bit scared I might actually shoot something and then have to pack it down... No more park the truck in the dark and storm straight up the mountain with backpack and just enough to make it through a night on a mountain somewhere if I see something, freezing my ass off.
Will call you later about progress on the rifle and the PID mount - have some interesting stuff for you and I'm itching to start casting bullets for the rifle. My brothers may be coming here so we can get a few weeks of hunting this year after opening day.
It would be interesting to hear your opinion on options for an old school sheep rifle and cartridge for the OP, particularly with the upcoming sheep hunts he has. After all, you're still in the sheep hunting game a bit and you're almost as old as dirt - that makes you an official advisory old school sheep hunter from that era.
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Rick; can you post a photo or two of the crown of a 1600 series? I want to get an idea of how much meat is on those barrels.
Makes sense, considering Ralph came here to work under/with Martin/Adolph (now Martin again) in Cranbrook building Hagn rifles. Both do wonderful, amazing work, for those with the coin (and willingness) to pay for it. Ralph is more attuned to delivering fine accuracy than Martin, in my opinion. It was fun dropping into Martin's shop in seeing the difference between the two in how they worked back in those days. Watching Martin take a hatchet to a blank of exhibition grade Turkish walnut "to get rid of the excess wood" was something you'll never forget if you've ever seen it.
One difference these days is that a lot of work on custom rifles gets parted out to somebody else these days i.e. checkering, even though they can do the checkering just as good themselves. Ralf and Martin both part out work now, and I imagine most of the name custom rifle makers probably do the same for economic reasons. Martin is almost 80 now, if he hasn't turned 80 already. If you want a Martin Hagn rifle, you should probably order it sooner than later. All gun makers retire, sooner or later.
Old school vintage sheep and plains game rifles would include rifles by makers like Al Biesen, Al Linden, Maurice Ottmar, Tom Shellhammer, Bill Sukalle, Jerry Fisher, etc on Krag Jørgensen and 1903 as well as Mauser military surplus actions.
I doubt many of them were sub MOA capable rifles - in the romantic vintage era of the 50's, 60's and 70's, those guys were about stalking and taking trophy sheep and plains game hunted on foot, not long distance killing from one peak to the next that required sub MOA precision rifles for 400+ yard shots. From what I recall reading, most of them felt particularly well equipped with a rifle merely capable of one MOA.
A Swarovski or similar scope manufacturer of any flavor would not be or look old school; you may or may not care about that. The ubiquitous classic sheep rifle owned by O'Connor or one of his contemporaries probably wore a Weaver or Leupold, maybe a Redfield or Noske, or the earliest ones even a Lyman. Horror of horrors, many were only 4x magnification; how they managed to kill sheep and goats with only 4x scopes (or less) we can't imagine today.
Bluing and walnut are relatively impervious to the elements with a minimum of forethought and care; the sheep hunters of the classic era proved that for decades - the O'Connor #2 you mentioned is proof of that. Modern coatings like polyurathane for wood and cerokote and other metal finishes might be more impervious, but they certainly aren't going to look classic.
Around here, most of the locals harassing our bighorns and goats in the classic era of my youth, bought more Husqvarna and BSA featherweights than Model 70s. That would include my father and his friends, and then later my brothers and myself and our friends. Probably because as imported working mens' rifles they were less expensive than a Model 70 AND slightly lighter than the Model 70 choices off the shelf, especially after the 1964 changes that Winchester made.
Soooo... anything a custom gunmaker can do to a Model 70's metal, they can also do to a Husqvarna or BSA action. For a minimalist, sleek light action to build a rifle on, in my opinion the Husky's action (and BSA) is hands down nicer than the Winny 70 in the looks department.
This is a Husky that Bill Leeper did nothing special to other than reshaping the bolt handle to a Mannlicher style and rebarreling with a Ron Smith barrel, chambered in 30 Newton (how's that for classic cartridge?). It will put 165 grain bullets doing about 3100 fps into slightly less than a MOA out to at least 300 yards (maximum length of Bill's backyard range) every time, despite the factory stock and no other work done on it:
That's to illustrate it's classic looking, light, and accurate enough for mountain sheep hunting - or antelope hunting if you prefer - with nothing other than being a properly done re-barrel job; a custom gun maker paid to go to town on it could really turn out something light, accurate, and heirloom quality.
So you could build yet another ubiquitous Model 70 based classic sheep rifle (I suspect you're not interested in a Krag or 1903 based action just as you aren't a Mauser). Or look at one of the Husky or BSA actions from back in the early/mid 60's for your platform, or perhaps an also classic looking late 60s/early 70s Sako action like the L61 or L579 which would weigh a bit more to start with.
And if you wanted to be slightly different in the caliber department as well, the 1950s era 7x61 Sharpe & Hart was and is right at home hunting sheep and plains game. The Shultz & Larson and custom rifles I've seen in 7 x 61 Sharpe and Hart were very well done. The 284 Winchester is a 1960's cartridge that was aimed at sheep hunters as well. 140 grain bullets at 3000 fps and 160 grain bullets at around 2800 fps should be able to get your sheep and antelope hunting done.
Of course, you could browse through Jack O'Connor's Outdoor Life columns from the 60's to his retirement in the 70's and his books and see lots of pictures and writings on what the state of the art classic sheep rifle was during those years. His often wrote about about mountain rifles weighing in at 8 lbs flat complete with scope and mounts if I recall correctly -a weight many modern sheep rifles can easily best, and an off the rack Husqvarna or BSA featherweight from the 1960s that Joe Average could afford can best as well, mounted with a Leupold or Weaver scope.
A Hagn based single shot with case hardening in the caliber of your choice with primo Circassian walnut stock by either Hagn or Martini would give you a really light rifle with more barrel length to get velocity out of at the same time (several of the Hagn/Martini rifles I saw in 30/06 had 25" barrels and weighed in at 6 lbs, and felt beautifully balanced). Beautiful as they are, when I think classic mountain rifle, I'm firmly stuck on a light bolt action rifle on a receiver with classic lines, all walnut and blued steel.
You can go in a dozen different directions other than another ubiquitous Model 70 (if you so wish); beauty is in the eye of the sheep hunter... Retail therapy at its finest!
At my age my sheep and goat hunting days are numbered. I can't use my rifle as my excuse: that Husky above (that I bought new circa 1972 or so) that Bill rebarrelled to 30 Newton weighs less than O'Connor's sheep rifle by over a pound, despite the longer barrel he left on it. My legs just aren't what they used to be. No more of that start at the bottom of the mountain in the dark and be up near the top at first light...
I agree with this except for the statement "ubiquitous model 70" I'd substitute "ubiquitous M98 clones". Seems like everyone and their dog is building M98, FN98, or 98 clone based custom rifles for the last while. Model 70 action is still the equal or better of a 98 in the looks department.
One of my two baby brothers doubles as the family expert on BSA as well as Ross rifles, but I'll stick my neck out and say that if the barrel was full length, then it wasn't the featherweight model of BSA Majestic my father bought to hunt sheep and goats. Of course, BSA quite likely could have also had different versions of what they termed a featherweight. Not everybody would have wanted that really short barrel, believing they would lose too much velocity.
I will also offer my opinion that if your rifle didn't have the BESA style dragon call cut into the end, then you could call that an advantage. I thought they looked really cool when I was in early grade school when Dad got it in the 60's; after standing near him when he was the one who shot an elk or moose or whatever while we were out hunting, I changed my mind pretty quickly about how cool it was. It was a big reason I went looking for a Husqvarna 5000 featherweight to buy, not a BSA when I thought all their featherweights came with a dragon call machined into the end of the barrel.
Dad said the noise of it never bothered him. Of course, not only was he the one behind the gun instead of somewhere to the side of it, Dad was also pretty deaf from a couple of decades working as a millwright in the crushing chamber underground in the mine.
I think you'd get more (and better detailed information) concerning Husqvarna rifles if you posted over at the now massive stickied thread on this sub-forum that Baribel steers along.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/486796-Husqvarna-Sporting-Rifles-ALL-MODELS!!!
I do see Tradex has all kinds of Model 1600s still for sale, although all the VG condition rifles seem to have disappeared. Only saw two two 358 Norma Magnums for sale; lots of 9.3 flavours and a hackysack full of 30-06, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. No 4000 or 5000 series that I noticed.
But anyways, measurements off a 165x variant 358 Norma Magnum that has a stock more like a 5000 series Husky than the 1600s I normally see that have a lot more wood and weight in their stocks.
(One of those low cost Tradex 1600s with a badly abused stock would make a hell of a sleek, somewhat lightweight platform for a rebarreled and restocked traditional old school sheep rifle, in my opinion.)
Your pics:
But, now and for the last little while, is not the subject Jack O'Connor era of old school sheep hunting and sheep hunting rifles.
That aside, I bet anyone could dive into O'Connor's books and columns on sheep hunting and sheep hunting rifles and find many or even more references to custom sheep rifles built on surplus M98 rifles, 1903s, and even Krags as compared to Winchester 70's. Rifles built on those actions rather than a Model 70, not because of economic or any other necessity, but built on those actions instead as a matter of personal taste and choice.
And if you were going to hunt sheep with the classic 7x57, why wouldn't you want that classic Mauser cartridge chambered in a classic Mauser rifle?
In fact, if you wanted your classic old school sheep rifle right now in the next few days, $5,400 USD will get you an Al Biesen sheep rifle that definitely doesn't suffer in the looks department. 8 lbs 2 oz. - pretty close to the O'Connor #2 sheep rifle the OP mentioned earlier. Looking at what guys will spend on a Nightforce or similar scope and their long range rigs, an Al Biesen rifle that looks like that, in that condition seems like that's within reach of some ordinary blue collar guys' wallets.
This is an example of what I would say meets the criteria of being a custom made classic sheep hunting rifle.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...eckering--1962--accurate.cfm?gun_id=101662475
This Biesen rifle on an M98 doesn't suffer much in the looks department either. Also what I would consider a classic rifle from the golden era of sheep hunting.
There's also a beauty Biesen built a bit later on a Sako Forester action, some rifles he built back in the day for O'Connor on 1903 actions, and of course as you probably know Biesen also built a lot of rifles on Model 70 actions.
Built by a skilled gun maker who can put all the lines together, they can all be equally beautiful classic sheep rifles like the OP is talking about commissioning for his sheep hunt.
Being the Philistine crude minded knuckle dragger that I am, if I won the Lotto and could go to the 'Stans next year for a dream hunt for Marco Polo sheep on the petty cash I had in my pockets... I'd almost certainly take the rifle I've been using for the last 45+ years. One of my original Huskys, the one with the action worked on and the Mannlicher bolt modification and rebarreled 30 Newton by Bill Leeper. Lots of memories in the wood and metal of that rifle already. Would almost feel like cheating on my wife to get a glitzy new rifle for a hunt like that and leave a rifle that's never failed me sitting at home. Felt guilty just replacing the factory 30/06 barrel... but I'm finally over that (although I still have the barrel... just in case).
Ya dance with the one who brung ya... and if I can't take the shot with an honest one MOA rifle shooting 168 gr. TTSXs at 3100+ fps... bringing a new girl along to do the shooting with probably wouldn't help in the slightest.
I have always thought the mid 1950's to mid 1960's saw the pinnacle of custom rifle building. This is not to say that there have not been many fine rifles built since then and it is not to say there have not been some advances in the areas of durability and reliability. It's just that the formula for the perfect classic, wood stocked, rifle had been settled on and all that followed were just variations in style and nuance. Rifles from this period were perfect examples of form following function (with some exceptions, of course). Rifles were expected to be carried so they fit your hand pretty well. Balance was recognized to be as important as weight and the walnut stock actually made it easier to achieve good balance.
Today, if I'm making myself a rifle to carry in the mountains, I try to make it like those (just not as good!). I like the rifle to carry well in my hand. I like it to shoot well when I actually get to take a shot. I like it to weigh around 7.5 to 8 pounds. Probably as important as anything else, when I'm sitting on my sleeping pad, with my back against a tree, I want to be able to look at my rifle, leaned up against another tree, and like what I see. A good rifle is a companion. If everything is right, I should be able to pick up that rifle years later and see that camp, smell the fire, and feel the bark of the tree. It almost seems to me that only walnut and blued steel have the ability to absorb this ambiance and give it back later on.
I have one rifle which is really a pretty decent mountain rifle. I built it on a Ruger 77 action. I fitted a slim, stainless, 7mm barrel which I chambered in 7x57. I put it into a lightweight Wildcat stock and mounted a 4x Leupold on it. It weighs in at about 7 pounds, all up and really should be a fine sheep rifle. Trouble is, when I'm thinking of going on a hunt, I have to remind myself it's even there. Instead, I find myself picking up the Mauser in 35 Whelen that I built thirty-five years ago, or the Model 70 in 308 Norma my dad carried. I find that carrying these just feels right.
So it is that I carry the old rifles and seldom shoot anything, carry old knives that seldom cut anything, and, when I'm sitting with my back against that tree, I look at these things and I feel good.
That barrel I put on Randy's BSA does have a home-made approximation of the original integral brake. The change I made was to make a restrictor insert which threads into the front. I also made a long insert which, when installed, eliminates the brake effect. It also acted as an extension of the bore for cleaning so a guy didn't end up with a patch stuck in the brake. I was about half pleased with the result.
Today, if I'm making myself a rifle to carry in the mountains, I try to make it like those (just not as good!). I like the rifle to carry well in my hand. I like it to shoot well when I actually get to take a shot. I like it to weigh around 7.5 to 8 pounds. Probably as important as anything else, when I'm sitting on my sleeping pad, with my back against a tree, I want to be able to look at my rifle, leaned up against another tree, and like what I see. A good rifle is a companion. If everything is right, I should be able to pick up that rifle years later and see that camp, smell the fire, and feel the bark of the tree. It almost seems to me that only walnut and blued steel have the ability to absorb this ambiance and give it back later on.
I have one rifle which is really a pretty decent mountain rifle. I built it on a Ruger 77 action. I fitted a slim, stainless, 7mm barrel which I chambered in 7x57. I put it into a lightweight Wildcat stock and mounted a 4x Leupold on it. It weighs in at about 7 pounds, all up and really should be a fine sheep rifle. Trouble is, when I'm thinking of going on a hunt, I have to remind myself it's even there. Instead, I find myself picking up the Mauser in 35 Whelen that I built thirty-five years ago, or the Model 70 in 308 Norma my dad carried. I find that carrying these just feels right.
So it is that I carry the old rifles and seldom shoot anything, carry old knives that seldom cut anything, and, when I'm sitting with my back against that tree, I look at these things and I feel good.
That barrel I put on Randy's BSA does have a home-made approximation of the original integral brake. The change I made was to make a restrictor insert which threads into the front. I also made a long insert which, when installed, eliminates the brake effect. It also acted as an extension of the bore for cleaning so a guy didn't end up with a patch stuck in the brake. I was about half pleased with the result.
I think you just nailed the essence of a rifle to carry in the wild places up in the mountains right there, Bill.
That's why the longer we own and carry these kind of rifles rifles, those knives, the favorite jacket, etc the more valuable they become despite the more worn they become from use. And that increases by magnitudes if your father or grandfather hunted with it and you, long before it was passed on to you.
The modern techno rifles are truly impressive shooting machines and their multi-thousand dollar scopes are optical wonders. It's like the difference between shooting service rifle with an AR-15 versus a No. 4 Mk1. The best one for shooting isn't the one that feels the best in your hands To me, on a hunt up in the wild places, the modern marvels feel (to me at least) like they belong on the mountain about as much as a basketball hoop in the middle of a hockey arena. Or if you prefer, going up the mountain into sheep camp on a quad instead of walking or on a horse.
BTW, Randy is really pleased with how you rebarreled that BSA including replicating the look of the dragon call on the original barrel. You may only be half pleased, but he's fully pleased. I still think they're nasty, vicious, obnoxious things to be near when the trigger gets pulled.
However, as we usually don't ruin a perfectly good hunt by giving in to the temptation to shoot something these days, it usually works out okay for all concerned.
I would certainly put my hand up for a Husqvarna based build. They are relatively cheap to acquire and the action/stock mating tends to really hold up with no other work needed (other than the tang crack that happens sometime - can be repaired and a pillar bedding takes care of that) and produce good accuracy. I have a Husqvarna -06 that is a tack driver. And at about 7 1/4 lbs all in it is quite light.
I have a personal build I am planning that fits the criteria.I will be using a 1930's mauser 98 commercial action trued and squared and nitride hardened .Yes with the thumb slot or gas release on the side ,model 70 safety a stainless barrel in 270 winchester.After all it is a classic sheep gun.Then I will stabilize an english walnut blank that I have been hording.The same system knife custom knife makers do there handles to make them dishwasher safe. The stabilizing will make the wood surface 30 percent harder.
Personal preference, but I like to see the M98s with one of the many x57 cases, whereas the 270 and other American cartridges in a M70. Euro vs American.
What's this "stabilizing" you speak of?
