Does neck tension affect bullet seating consistency?

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MartyK2500

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Recently I have acquired a K&M arbor press (with force dial) with some LE Wilson dies.
Love the setup it's lot's of fun.
I can experiment on my reload process, and see what does and what doesn't affect bullet seating force needed.

Right now my seating pressure sits between 52 and 60 in/lbs.
When I segregate my ammo within 2-3 in/lbs seating pressure, I notice even tighter groups and ES/SD.
My neck tension is at exactly 2 thous, while using a Forster FLS die with expander ball removed, and a 21st Century standard 6.5 expander.

Here is my following question.
Would a 1.5 thou or 1.0 thou neck tension have even better bullet seat force consistency?
I feel like ordering the whole 6.5 and 308 21st Century mandrel kit, but don't feel like wasting money if it's not a factor in consistent seat depth pressure.

Also looking into having the most consistent necks for consistent bullet seating, at least this arbor press and gauge tell me when something new makes a difference, or not.
 
I feel that the brass prep consistency has more to do with it than the neck tension number itself, however, I guess you could say a 5% difference in neck tension in both 0.002" or 0.001" neck tension, one is technically better.
The change in neck tension setting is only likely to slightly change the case pressure. I would just stay with what you have. Experiment with different neck lube instead and see if you can narrow the seating pressure even more that way.
From your other posts, I feel you are gong to gain more from shooting technique and learning environmental conditions, as you have a solid reloading process already. Also trying to make ammo perfect is kind fun too, I get that.
 
Right now it’s the only fun thing left, trying to perfect ammo and go out to shoot it with the best fundamentals possible.

As soon as the long-range range re-opens, focus will be redirected to wind reading and all these good things, in the meanwhile perfecting my reload technique is all I have left.


So far I played around a bit.
Brushing the inside of the necks with a nylon brush definitely evens out the carbon and gives me better results.
Using dry graphite lube for my expander and then brushing it out will give me a different seating tension, although the force deviation remains the same.

Other than that I don’t know what other lube could actually make a difference?

As far as brass prep consistency, every process along the way gives me repeatable numbers.
 
I get what you say about ES/SD

Currently doing a hybrid load dev so to speak.
I am looking for velocity plateaus which are usually accompanied by low ES/SD, but if they don’t print well on paper I move on to the next plateau.

So far, what had best results on paper also had very good results on chrony,
Good results on chrony did not mean good results on paper.

By lower seated bullet runout, do you mean the actual loaded round runout or just less variation in seating force/seating depth?

By the way the LE WIlson die did reduce my overall runout even more.
I can load a batch of 40 rounds and the worst one is barely 1.5 thou runout, 90%+ of them are sub 1/2 thou runout. Really love this die!

Do you have access to variable diameter expander mandrels Jerry?
 
As I recall from a Richard Lee Reloading manual - a limit to the amount that a brass case mouth/neck will expand with tension, versus actually deform. So, idea, as I remember, was to be within that "springy" capacity of the brass - so it holds the bullet tightly until fired - if you make case neck too small, then forcing in a bullet will be deforming the brass, and likely end up with "lower" amount of grip on the bullet. Sounds like you have the toys - let us know whether Richard Lee's story checks out???
 
There was a video of someone using an amp press that stated that more neck tension up to a certain point actually showed more consistent seating force . I cant remember who it was though.
 
Hey MartyK2500 ! I did the exact same thing over the winter....got a K&M arbor press along with a bullet seater from L.E Wilson. Also purchased a few expander mandrels and mandrel die from 21st Century. Noticed a big improvement with neck tension and bullet seating consistency. I'm pretty sure that using the expander plays a big role in my consistent neck tension. With the arbor press and force pac gauge, you certainly get a better "feel" while seating bullets.If you're still looking for 21st Century mandrels, check with Hirsch Precision ( 902-829-2932 )....they are now a dealer for 21st Century. ..just a week or so ago the recieved a shipment of mandrels and the new mandrel die ( it has a window cut into the side of die ). Hirsch Precision is great company to deal with! Tell them that BJ said hello.
 
beaverbank said:
Hey MartyK2500 ! I did the exact same thing over the winter....got a K&M arbor press along with a bullet seater from L.E Wilson. Also purchased a few expander mandrels and mandrel die from 21st Century. Noticed a big improvement with neck tension and bullet seating consistency. I'm pretty sure that using the expander plays a big role in my consistent neck tension. With the arbor press and force pac gauge, you certainly get a better "feel" while seating bullets.If you're still looking for 21st Century mandrels, check with Hirsch Precision ( 902-829-2932 )....they are now a dealer for 21st Century. ..just a week or so ago the recieved a shipment of mandrels and the new mandrel die ( it has a window cut into the side of die ). Hirsch Precision is great company to deal with! Tell them that BJ said hello.
Click to expand...

Hi BJ thanks for the feedback.
Spoke with Peter a few times, purchased 4x NF scopes from him with a 5th one on order.
While we don’t know each other very much, we have mutual benefits dealing with each other!

Did you get the full expander mandrel set?
From Peter or 21st directly?
How much neck tension gave you the most repeatable results so far?


TrxR said:
There was a video of someone using an amp press that stated that more neck tension up to a certain point actually showed more consistent seating force . I cant remember who it was though.
Click to expand...

I’ll have to look into it.
I do not trust Bolt action reloader channel as he always seems to have limited sample data, and is not a competitor himself.
Trying to see what Cortina finds out with the AMP press without becoming a paid member.
 
Hey MartyK2500 ! I ordered my 21st century stuff directly, then showed them to Peter and Stephen. ..I think Peter was impressed enough to carry some of their products. ( I've known Peter for over thirty years.....Peter likes quality stuff! ). I've got mandrels for....223,6.5,7mm, and .308. I use the .308 and .223 the most....for the .308 ( f- class ) I'm using .3075 and a .336 bushing for .308 and .2235 mandrel for .223. I bought just 3 different diameters for each of those calibers.Not sure if Peter brought entire sets in or not.Pretty sure that fe brought in most of the popular ones for each caliber....BJ.
 
MartyK2500 said:
I get what you say about ES/SD

Currently doing a hybrid load dev so to speak.
I am looking for velocity plateaus which are usually accompanied by low ES/SD, but if they don’t print well on paper I move on to the next plateau.

So far, what had best results on paper also had very good results on chrony,
Good results on chrony did not mean good results on paper.

By lower seated bullet runout, do you mean the actual loaded round runout or just less variation in seating force/seating depth?

By the way the LE WIlson die did reduce my overall runout even more.
I can load a batch of 40 rounds and the worst one is barely 1.5 thou runout, 90%+ of them are sub 1/2 thou runout. Really love this die!

Do you have access to variable diameter expander mandrels Jerry?
Click to expand...

And why the target will tell you everything you need to know...

A bit of both. When you have higher neck tension, a bullet can be tilted to overcome the neck tension in the case... I call it neck tension but it involves the alloy, thickness, annealing. Maybe a better way to describe it is neck elasticity.

I am glad that your gear is giving you the results you are looking for. That helps to build confidence... but ultimately, these gains, if any, are incrementally small vs the average group any rifle will make. Obviously, we all have to do 'enough' but beyond that, I have yet to see any benefits on target over larger sample sizes.

so I simplify to make 'good' enough as quickly and as easily as possible... then spend my time on what is most important.

learning to read conditions...

Jerry
 
If you are looking to test then i would avoid buying the entire 21st set...You can accomplish the same test using pin gauges.

You can get pin gauges here in Canada for under $4 a pin and in half sizes (you will need to chamfer the pins). you will also need a pin holder most people start out using their collet bullet puller and then step up to the 21st century or the PORTER system.
The other piece of the puzzle you need to acquire additional bushings. The consensus for the bushing / expander combination is to size down .001 .0015 less than the expander. There is an identified correlation between squeezing down the neck and then expanding up and results on paper. Too much constriction before expanding results in poorer results.

Trevor
 
Jerry, I fully agree that learning to read conditions is more important than creating that perfect load.
My range is still stuck in the mud covid wise, so while being stuck to 200/300M, may as well develop the #### out of my loads and learn a thing or two along the way!


Trevor, I have noticed what you are speaking of, in relation to bushing size vs mandrel size.
I only have 1 Mandrel size right now, but when I FLS with my different neck diameter dies, I notice that a large gap between resized neck and expander creates inconsistencies.
On my end I didn't go the bushing route as I frankly had a hard time fully understanding it at first, but have got 6 honed dies along the road.
308 factory FLS die, plus 3 honed dies to different neck dias, 6.5x47 Lapua factory FLS die, plus 3 honed dies to different neck dias.

Forster offers the service and is relatively cheap and efficient for what I wish to do.
By being 1 piece instead of bushings, it allegedly reduces runout, but how would I know as I never tried bushings.


My factory 21st century expanders we're .2625'' and .3065''
Just ordered .2630'', .3070'' and .3075'' from Peter.
I have the FLS dies to play around these mandrels too to match them.
 
Will bear this in mind.
Telltale sign would be too much vertical?
If I see some vertical stringing re-do a powder tune test?

Sort of losing my hopes for the 900M for 2021 so far anyways…
 
I feel your pain Marty, my field I shoot in was seeded early, and now it really has not rained all summer, I really am hoping the crop comes off quick and it rains so I can shoot out to 1000 again. The crop is either wheat or barley, so at least they will process it before the canola and flax. ( last year it was an oil seed, so they took it off late, that also sucked )
 
Mystic Precision said:
Mostly vertical tuning... you will adjust the usual suspects.

Could be a nice fall so maybe you will get to play before the snow comes.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Fall could be as nice as it can get, but until Connaught re-opens to civilians post-covid, all the nice weather in the world won't give me access to the range.
Trying hard for a plan B this summer, summer is already coming to an end and still got nothing in sight past 300M.

I do have a 600M 1-2 times per summer.
But it's not reliable enough to depend on it.
 
MartyK2500 said:
Trevor, I have noticed what you are speaking of, in relation to bushing size vs mandrel size.
I only have 1 Mandrel size right now, but when I FLS with my different neck diameter dies, I notice that a large gap between resized neck and expander creates inconsistencies.
On my end I didn't go the bushing route as I frankly had a hard time fully understanding it at first, but have got 6 honed dies along the road.
308 factory FLS die, plus 3 honed dies to different neck dias, 6.5x47 Lapua factory FLS die, plus 3 honed dies to different neck dias.

Forster offers the service and is relatively cheap and efficient for what I wish to do.
By being 1 piece instead of bushings, it allegedly reduces runout, but how would I know as I never tried bushings.


My factory 21st century expanders we're .2625'' and .3065''
Just ordered .2630'', .3070'' and .3075'' from Peter.
I have the FLS dies to play around these mandrels too to match them.
Click to expand...


I can only speak to 308win
my testing preferred more tension; curious how your results turn out.

Trevor
 
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