Shotgun barrel length legal question

Can-down said:
Funny thing with our dumb laws.... if you added(modified) a 1/4" piece of leather to the metal butt plate of your ranchhand and the new length was under the legal limit you would have lengthened the gun and made it prohibited in the process.

Simplification of our gun laws should be a priority! The fact that most gun owners and even more police can't make sense of the rules suggests there is a need for a re-write. Question is who does the re-write? Actual Firearms experts looking at facts and evidence..... or someone with a clear bias and agenda?
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Ill do it. Won't be a lot of writing, but a whole lot of straight deleting. I am not an expert. I have a clear bias and agenda. Do you trust me?
 
Cameron SS said:
Lots.

I have seen single shot .22lrs made for children that are below that limit. Most 'Mares Legs' are below that limit.

And there are some brands of pump shotguns sold with short barrels and 'raptor grip' stocks that are below that limit.

The mares leg is an interesting one because in the US it is explicitly marketed as a handgun in order to avoid the US Short Barreled Rifle definition, but some how in Canada its a rifle. Its also interesting, in that the RCMP have assessed it as NOT BEING A HANDGUN, because its a lever action, and therefore needs two hands to operate. But the 12" barrelled Mares Legs are rifles yet the 9" barrelled Mares legs, with identical action and operation, is somehow a handgun.

As much as I want to engage in this "classify my gun" threads, its much more important that 2.2 million gun owners understand that our classification rules are utterly ridiculous, and there is no rationale whatsoever for treating firearms any differently based on their functions or features. In the right hands, no gun is any more or less a danger to public safety than any other. In the wrong hands, all guns are dangerous. A gun is a gun is a gun. Don't overthink it.
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Cameron SS, can you point us to some concrete examples of firearms in Canada that are available at dealers for sale ... and that are non restricted and have an overall length less than 660 mm?

2 or 3 links to firearms in inventory at dealers would be nice .....

Thank you!
 
Cameron SS said:
There is no overall length requirement for a Non Restricted Firearm.

A pump shotgun MAY be restricted if it has a telescoping or otherwise stock that allows its OAL to be reduced to less than 660mm.

A pump Shotgun MAY be Prohibited if it has been adapted from a firearm via sawing, cutting or any other alteration such that its barrel length is less than 457mm.

A pump shotgun MAY be prohibited if it is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm by regulations, because it is a named variant, a variant of a variant, an unnamed variant, a variant of an unnamed variant, has a bore diameter 20mm or larger (which is most 12 ga shotguns) or is capable of firing a shot in excess of 10,000 Joules, (which is most 12 ga shotguns).

The OP is asking whether the gun is NR, or perhaps Restricted. Based on the current state of our gun laws its much more likely that the gun is prohibited. But only a judge can tell you that for sure. The rest is just is speculation.
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If the barrel is a " legal" manufactured barrel, than it is non restricted.
If the barrel is made in my shop, than it is a prohibited shot gun , even thought I was a licenced gunsmith in Canada.
That is my option, but some will not agree with it.
I have never seen a court case regarding switching a 870 barrel and installing a licenced manufactured short barrel on it.
But I have sold a few, couple went to RCMP members, for their their own use, not duty guns, would be my guess.
 
0faustus0 said:
Cameron SS, can you point us to some concrete examples of firearms in Canada that are available at dealers for sale ... and that are non restricted and have an overall length less than 660 mm?

2 or 3 links to firearms in inventory at dealers would be nice .....

Thank you!
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At the moment , no stock left on the DA shot guns, but they where 8 1/2" , 12" 14" 16", and 18.5" pump action, semi auto would be Illegal, Prohibited.
The mare leg, I seen a couple at my local CT while back, have not looked. there are some short 22's for kids, savage makes one or two models.
I had a Ruger bolt action 223 with a 16 in barrel, sold now. Winchester is bringing out the 94 trapper model I heard, But that I am not up on.
I know more about short handguns, but that is a different ball game , for old farts.
 
Cameron SS said:
Every firearm falls into one of three mutually exclusive classifications. NR, Res, and Prohibited.

Nothing about being a pump shotgun dictates the class of the firearm.

Two out of three of those classifications contain provisions relating to OAL.

To Properly classify any firearm, including a pump shotgun, you apply the rules for prohibited. If it meets them, its prohibited.
If it does not, you apply the rules for restricted. If it meets them, its restricted.
If not, it is NR by default.

There are pump shotguns in every class.
There are rifles in every class.
There are handguns in every class.
There are revolvers in every class.
There are lever actions in every class.
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What non-restricted handguns are there?
 
regulate34 said:
I am trying to find a answer to my question
Maybe someone has a link to a place that I can’t find this.

If I put a 12.5” barrel on a 12g pump shotgun. And the overall length is definitely over 26” (33”)

Is this gun still non-restricted?

Or would it be a restricted firearm because it didn’t come from the factory that way?
Even with a manufacturerd 12.5” barrel?

Thanks guys
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Legally a NR.

I had a smith put a 12.5" 9mm barrel on an Lee Enfield ( modified the gun, not the barrel ) It is still NR.
 
marshall said:
If the barrel is a " legal" manufactured barrel, than it is non restricted.
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That it an interpretation not supported by any actual law. No where in the criminal code or firearms act is there such thing as a legally manufactured barrel or an illegally manufactured barrel.

If the barrel is made in my shop, than it is a prohibited shot gun , even thought I was a licenced gunsmith in Canada.
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That depends on who you are and what your license says.

There is a world of difference between a licensed gun smith modifying a customers firearm and a licensed manufacturer buying some other firearm and remanufacturing it for sale to a customer. Even though the process is technically the same, the legalities are different.

That is my option, but some will not agree with it.
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Of course. And same goes for me. Take free legal advice as being worth what you paid for.

I have never seen a court case regarding switching a 870 barrel and installing a licenced manufactured short barrel on it.
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neither have.
But I have sold a few, couple went to RCMP members, for their their own use, not duty guns, would be my guess.
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What the RCMP are willing to accept for themselves, and what they are willing to accept for others, and what the actual law says, are three different things.

Remember that Bruce Montague did a lot of work for the OPP that was readily accepted as valid, but then they charged him for doing a lot of that same stuff for himself. obviously his case is complicated, not intending to divert into that can of worms.

0faustus0 said:
Cameron SS, can you point us to some concrete examples of firearms in Canada that are available at dealers for sale ... and that are non restricted and have an overall length less than 660 mm?

2 or 3 links to firearms in inventory at dealers would be nice .....

Thank you!
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https://www.cabelas.ca/product/46042/henry-mares-leg-lever-action-rifle
literally the first one that came up.

OkayShooter said:
Legally a NR.

I had a smith put a 12.5" 9mm barrel on an Lee Enfield ( modified the gun, not the barrel ) It is still NR.
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And you know its an NR how? Because the RCMP said so, or because a judge did? RCMP have been known to be wrong, they have been known to change their mind, and they have been known to just interpret the law however they want to, regardless of what it actually says.
 
Cameron SS said:
There is no overall length requirement for a Non Restricted Firearm.

A pump shotgun MAY be restricted if it has a telescoping or otherwise stock that allows its OAL to be reduced to less than 660mm.

A pump Shotgun MAY be Prohibited if it has been adapted from a firearm via sawing, cutting or any other alteration such that its barrel length is less than 457mm.

A pump shotgun MAY be prohibited if it is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm by regulations, because it is a named variant, a variant of a variant, an unnamed variant, a variant of an unnamed variant, has a bore diameter 20mm or larger (which is most 12 ga shotguns) or is capable of firing a shot in excess of 10,000 Joules, (which is most 12 ga shotguns).

The OP is asking whether the gun is NR, or perhaps Restricted. Based on the current state of our gun laws its much more likely that the gun is prohibited. But only a judge can tell you that for sure. The rest is just is speculation.
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What 12ga guns have a bore greater than 20mm?
What 12ga is capable of firing something that makes more than 10 000 joules?
 
Cameron SS said:
And you know its an NR how? Because the RCMP said so, or because a judge did? RCMP have been known to be wrong, they have been known to change their mind, and they have been known to just interpret the law however they want to, regardless of what it actually says.
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So we are suppose to live in fear, because? Oh better get rid of all 12 gauges with barrels less than 18", Oh all 1022 with barrels under 16, Oh all GSG 16 with 9 in barrels. Better shut down Dlask, they make alot of barrels and install alot of, under the 18" barrels on guns. If it truly was a problem, the RCMP would shut them down. I think alot of these are Mountains out of mole hills.

What is the fun in that? I better tell my gunsmith to scrap my Lee.
 
btabin said:
What non-restricted handguns are there?
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None. There are prohibited, restricted, and non-regulated (Antique) revolvers. I'm not aware of any antique status semi-automatic pistols, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist. There are no handguns that carry the non-restricted firearm classification.
 
Scotty454 said:
None. There are prohibited, restricted, and non-regulated (Antique) revolvers. I'm not aware of any antique status semi-automatic pistols, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist. There are no handguns that carry the non-restricted firearm classification.
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There are a handful of antique status semi-automatic pistols I am aware of. By far the most common is the Mauser C96, though there are likely some Borschardt C93s around as well. Some other designs were made in insignificant numbers as well.
 
Blastattack said:
There are a handful of antique status semi-automatic pistols I am aware of. By far the most common is the Mauser C96, though there are likely some Borschardt C93s around as well. Some other designs were made in insignificant numbers as well.
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Cool, now I know. Thanks!
 
OkayShooter said:
So we are suppose to live in fear, because? Oh better get rid of all 12 gauges with barrels less than 18", Oh all 1022 with barrels under 16, Oh all GSG 16 with 9 in barrels. Better shut down Dlask, they make alot of barrels and install alot of, under the 18" barrels on guns. If it truly was a problem, the RCMP would shut them down. I think alot of these are Mountains out of mole hills.

What is the fun in that? I better tell my gunsmith to scrap my Lee.
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I dont know how you took all that from my post. My only point is that the law isn't the law just because the RCMP said so. Gun owners need to stop getting their legal advice from the CFP. Its like the sheep asking the wolf to decide whats for dinner.
 
steamy teabag said:
And you volunteeting to be a test case.?

When measuring the length of a SG barrel do you stop where the choke threads start.
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In your mind is the enlarged chamber area included in the barrel length? Bore is measured after the chamber and before the choke
You better inform the gun industry beretta in particular as my beretta a400 12ga is stamped with a 18.6mm bore. I guess one of the oldest gun companies doesnt know to measure a barrel lol
 
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