455 Webley Mk 2 Case with Black Powder?

HasegawaYamato

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Hi lads,
Planning to load some rounds for my webley mk 1, was thinking about go with smokeless, as the load data is readily available, but found some left over 2F black powder.
Well, mk 1 revolver fires mk 1 BP cartridge surely no problem with that, but I just realize the only brass that I can get is mk 2 from starline, which is shorter than the BP mk 1, so smaller volume presumably, I dont think apply the load data for mk 1 cartidge is a good idea:(.
So will this be a major problem? Thanks in advance for advices!
Or perhaps some loading recipes for this situation? ;)
 
No problems making safe loads with modern smokeless powders like red dot or green dot. Just keep it on the mild side of things. I personally use 3.5 grains of green dot. Obviously the amount to use will vary depending on how deep you seat the bullet. Make sure you have a chronograph with you so you don't load past safe velocities (600-650fps).
 
Always remember that with black powder there can be no airspace between the powder and the bullet.
That usually controls the amount of BP in a cartridge.
 
No problems making safe loads with modern smokeless powders like red dot or green dot. Just keep it on the mild side of things. I personally use 3.5 grains of green dot. Obviously the amount to use will vary depending on how deep you seat the bullet. Make sure you have a chronograph with you so you don't load past safe velocities (600-650fps).

Yeah smokeless will work for sure, just want to be a little bit more old school lol
 
2F isn't optimal but it will work just fine. Slightly less clean combustion and maybe a few FPS less velocity but you aren't likely going up against Zulu warriors.
Compressing the powder a little will help but don't deform the bullets by squashing it in. Use a plug of some sort. Or some people settle the powder by vibration instead.
 
Yeah smokeless will work for sure, just want to be a little bit more old school lol

I have a Webley from my family. It was last carried in war during WWII. The ammunition that came with it when it was passed down to me is from that war period. It is not black powder. I doubt my revolver ever had a black powder round fired in it. Unless my memory is wrong, the Mk II service round was loaded with Cordite. I load mine with bullets cast using RCBS's mould that replicates the hollow based service round and smokeless pistol powder.

None of that may matter the slightest to you, of course. We all do it our way, mostly.

What I'm left with is wondering why you would prefer to be left with the job of cleaning your revolver of black powder residue, versus loading your ammunition with a smokeless powder with a far less onerous cleaning regime to avoid corrosion.
 
2F isn't optimal but it will work just fine. Slightly less clean combustion and maybe a few FPS less velocity but you aren't likely going up against Zulu warriors.
Compressing the powder a little will help but don't deform the bullets by squashing it in. Use a plug of some sort. Or some people settle the powder by vibration instead.

Thanks for the advice, Im pretty sure the Zulus will be handled by the Gatling gun battery lol
 
I have a Webley from my family. It was last carried in war during WWII. The ammunition that came with it when it was passed down to me is from that war period. It is not black powder. I doubt my revolver ever had a black powder round fired in it. Unless my memory is wrong, the Mk II service round was loaded with Cordite. I load mine with bullets cast using RCBS's mould that replicates the hollow based service round and smokeless pistol powder.

None of that may matter the slightest to you, of course. We all do it our way, mostly.

What I'm left with is wondering why you would prefer to be left with the job of cleaning your revolver of black powder residue, versus loading your ammunition with a smokeless powder with a far less onerous cleaning regime to avoid corrosion.

Respect to the men and the gun for fought off Nazis.
I know that the mk2 case is shortened for cordite, and thats why Im not so sure about the idea of loading BP in mk2 case, but if you ask me why I want go BP? For history and fun I guess :p
I hope I can get some mk1 case instead.
 
I loaded some 577 martini before so got some 2F left over... Should I give it a test or probably just give up on this idea?
It will work and it shouldn't hurt anything. Velocity will be somewhat lower, might be some good muzzle flame and maybe some burning particles so be careful shooting in the bush.
 
Respect to the men and the gun for fought off Nazis.
I know that the mk2 case is shortened for cordite, and thats why Im not so sure about the idea of loading BP in mk2 case, but if you ask me why I want go BP? For history and fun I guess :p
I hope I can get some mk1 case instead.

You can reduce the rim thickness on 45 Colt case, shorten it to MkII length and it should work well.

The rim diameter is appx .020 less than that of the 455 but most revolver extractors don't seem to mind.

Case diameters are almost identical.

The 45 Colt or some call it 45 Long Colt cases are much easier to find.

There are all sorts of ways to reduce rim thickness, from the case wall side, without needing to use a lathe.

It can be quite easily done with a drill press and a file.

I know one fellow that clamps a hand drill in his vice, wraps masking tape around the case and carefully files the rims to the thicknes he needs to function smoothly in his Mk1 Webley.

One other thing you may or may not want to try, is to fill the hollow base of bullet with automotive Bondo.

The Bondo reduces the risk of an unwanted airspace and might even help to obturate the bullet's heel into the rifling.

This works very well for some BP rifle cartridges, such as the 577 Snider, which also likes hollow base bullets.
 
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The Starline 45 Cowboy brass is close to mkI brass length and shouldn't need to thin the necks like some varieties of 45 colt brass. Still need to thin the rim though.
 
I hope I can get some mk1 case instead.

I feed a couple of World War revolvers chambered in 455 Webley



Way back when, circa the 1970's, a decade or so before Al Gore invented the Internet (that was before he invented extinct polar bears) I started reloading 455 Webley. Back then it was Handloader Magazine and advice on adapting for 45 Auto Rim, etc and so forth. I got cases as I found them, it was scrounge brass or stay home back then.

Fast forward and Starline started making 45 Schofield brass. Some poking around and I figured out that if you thinned down down the Schofield round's rim thickness from the front, you would have yourself Webley brass for your revolver. Having a lathe, time, and some patience, that's what I did. It was very, very basic stuff to do that, and it didn't take very long.

Not having TOO much patience, however, I figured that I there was no law saying I had to fully shorten the converted Schofield brass to the specified case length for 455 Webley. Being lazy, by trial and error I found out the maximum case length that would still easily drop into every chamber on both revolvers. After that, I trimmed the cases back just as far as I had to. The results make the rounds look like something else rather than a 455 Webley, but I haven't lost a case yet.

Starline makes 455 Webley cases now, but with a couple of hundred converted Schofield cases still on the go, I'm almost certainly set for whatever time I have left on this mortal coil before I shuffle off to take the long dirt nap. Anyways, Schofield brass will convert extremely nicely if you're in a brass hunting/scavenging scenario.

Just a generic pic of assorted stuff I took for my amusement. It does offer a pretty close look at RCBS's replica hollow based ball round that the .455 was loaded for. Kind of a revolver Minie ball...



A better look at a WWII round and one of my reloads that shows the differences in case length. WWII round on the left, the cast ball round replica, obviously, in the middle. Cast bullet versus government WWII ammunition seated bullet.



I suspect, but cannot prove, that the hollow base on that cast bullet really helps with the Webley at least. I slugged the cylinder mouths and the forcing cone area leading into the barrel. The Webley case mouths are much, much smaller than the barrel, leaving you imagining the bullets richocheting down the bore of the barrel, banging from side to side. My guess and belief is that the thin skirt in that bullet really helps the bullets that have been swaged down by the cylinder mouths get a kick at the entry to the barrel that flares out that skirt to completely obdurate to seal the barrel almost instantaneously

I cast the bullets out of pure lead (because the price is right: free), but they would probably be easier to do if you cast with one of the lead/tin mixtures the black powder cartridge guys prefer.

And when powder coating arrived on the scene, I instantly dumped the tumble lubing and other means of lubing the bullets that I had been using. Powder Clear Coat is great and fast, and I'd rather work with powder coat than liquid lubes any day of any year.
 
You can reduce the rim thickness on 45 Colt case, shorten it to MkII length and it should work well.

The Starline 45 Cowboy brass is close to mkI brass length and shouldn't need to thin the necks like some varieties of 45 colt brass. Still need to thin the rim though.

Thanks for the info! Time to look for some 45LC!
Gosh I should get a book on cartridge conversion :p
 
And when powder coating arrived on the scene, I instantly dumped the tumble lubing and other means of lubing the bullets that I had been using. Powder Clear Coat is great and fast, and I'd rather work with powder coat than liquid lubes any day of any year.

Thats some nice pics! And thanks for the info on 45 Schofield, eventhough I believe it is as hard to find as Webely mk1 case nowdays :p
Yeah I heard about the smaller cylinder mouth, and thats partially why I worried about the loads, cant risk damaging the nice art piece of human engineering.
By the way, did the powder coating done a better job on solving leading problem compare to conventional lubing, or its a balance between effectiveness and convince?
 
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