Barrels and Bullets

Re3iever

Re3iever

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I started down this road a little over 2 years ago and have been pleased with my progress so far. I have (5) different single shot rifles all chambered in 45-70. Overall my performance has improved so now I want to better understand the idea of matching bullets to the barrel. To that end I slugged the barrels of all (5) rifles and recorded the results ( see pic below).

In addition I listed the cast lead bullets I have been using for reloading to this point. What I am looking for is feedback re whether or not the bullets are too small or too big for specific rifles or are they just right. Any other relevant comments or feedback would be appreciated. Also any comments or recommendation for reading materials, videos or articles related to paper patching would be appreciated.

With the exception of the Trapdoor all of these guns will currently shoot a 3" to 5" group (iron sights) at 100 yards.

TIA
Retreever

Rifle Barrel Lands and Grooves.jpg
 

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  • Rifle Barrel Lands and Grooves.jpg
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Retreever,
I'm not able to view the file with the info re: Barrel lands and grooves. I've played with paper patching in .30, 38, 40 & 45 cals. with limited success. I do far better with greasers. A good book on patching is "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Mathews. Whenever the bug bites me to play with PP bullets, I get my book out and read it.....again! I'm presently re-reading "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino. It's a great read with tons of information. I have several molds for the .45 cal. 2 of them being PP molds: an RCBS 530 Grainer and an Accurate Molds 400 gr. I just miked the Accurate bullet and it came in at .451" Two wraps of 9lb onionskin paper adds .006" bringing the bullet up to .457". Assuming the bullet is pure lead or maybe a 40-1 alloy and you're shooting BP, the bullet should upset and give you a good seal.
Good luck in your quest!
 
Is outside my personal experience, but I believe the old bullet caster guy Veral Smith (?) expounded that fit to size of the throat was what was desired, not necessarily to bore grooves. Might be worth to investigate that notion?? Maybe has been de-bunked?
 
Potashminer said:
Is outside my personal experience, but I believe the old bullet caster guy Veral Smith (?) expounded that fit to size of the throat was what was desired, not necessarily to bore grooves. Might be worth to investigate that notion?? Maybe has been de-bunked?
Click to expand...

Had a very similar suggestion on another forum - I had been planning to make chamber/throat casts of all my guns so looks like this is moving nearer the top of the to do list. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any Cerrosafe here in Canada.

Retreever
 
oldrodder said:
Retreever,
I'm not able to view the file with the info re: Barrel lands and grooves. I've played with paper patching in .30, 38, 40 & 45 cals. with limited success. I do far better with greasers. A good book on patching is "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Mathews. Whenever the bug bites me to play with PP bullets, I get my book out and read it.....again! I'm presently re-reading "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" by Mike Venturino. It's a great read with tons of information. I have several molds for the .45 cal. 2 of them being PP molds: an RCBS 530 Grainer and an Accurate Molds 400 gr. I just miked the Accurate bullet and it came in at .451" Two wraps of 9lb onionskin paper adds .006" bringing the bullet up to .457". Assuming the bullet is pure lead or maybe a 40-1 alloy and you're shooting BP, the bullet should upset and give you a good seal.
Good luck in your quest!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips OldRodder, I ordered the Paul Matthews book from Amazon I actually just got another of his 40 Years with the 45-70 which was an interesting read.

Retreever
 
Re3iever said:
Had a very similar suggestion on another forum - I had been planning to make chamber/throat casts of all my guns so looks like this is moving nearer the top of the to do list. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any Cerrosafe here in Canada.

Retreever
Click to expand...

I got mine from Brownells. Used to be a guy in Winnipeg who sold gunsmith supplies, but he went out of business long ago. - dan
 
Re3iever said:
Had a very similar suggestion on another forum - I had been planning to make chamber/throat casts of all my guns so looks like this is moving nearer the top of the to do list. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any Cerrosafe here in Canada.

Retreever
Click to expand...

I picked up a pound of Cerrosafe from Brownell's on an order of other stuff. Seems to be able to be used over and over. That Veral Smith - had a process called "lead packing" or maybe was called "throat packing" - cerrosafe only gives you an accurate measurement at that one hour (60 minute) mark after casting - continues to swell afterwards, so a day later is larger than when as cast. I never did the "packing" thing - apparently done with pure lead - and advantage is that the size will never change, once done. Might be worth to find out how that is actually done - I do not know how to do it.
 
One thing you may wish to include is the rate of twist. What about the length of the throat on each rifle? You would have to take each bullet and modified case and measure it in each rifle. I also shoot Lyman 457132 that throws 528g with great success.

Today I shot some .0005" over and .002" over to see if there was any difference. Tomorrow I will review it all.
 
MC One Shot said:
One thing you may wish to include is the rate of twist. What about the length of the throat on each rifle? You would have to take each bullet and modified case and measure it in each rifle. I also shoot Lyman 457132 that throws 528g with great success.

Today I shot some .0005" over and .002" over to see if there was any difference. Tomorrow I will review it all.
Click to expand...

MC, I plan to cast and measure all the rifles to determine the measurement of all and hoping to find some commonality so maybe I only end up with a couple of bullet configurations

Retreever
 
hickstick_10 said:
What load are you using? And are you shooting just with plain buckhorn sights?
Click to expand...

Loads are primarily 55g and 70g blackpowder or equivalent Triple7 depending on bullet. My Highwall has a a repro Malcolm 6X scope, the Trapdoor has the Buffington Rear Sight and front blade. The others all have Vermeer rear sight and globe front sight.

Retreever
 
3 to 5 inches with a vernier sight makes me think some load development is in order before focusing on bullet fit to rifling. It’s part of the recipe for a good load but it’s not everything. Somethings going on here because my Shiloh will have 3 touching at 100 yards with MVA sights.

If you’re full length resizing, stop doing it and are you using an over powder wad?
 
hickstick_10 said:
3 to 5 inches with a vernier sight makes me think some load development is in order before focusing on bullet fit to rifling. It’s part of the recipe for a good load but it’s not everything. Somethings going on here because my Shiloh will have 3 touching at 100 yards with MVA sights.

If you’re full length resizing, stop doing it and are you using an over powder wad?
Click to expand...

Thanks Hickstick, actually working load development concurrently - ran 20 rounds through my Trapdoor yesterday 45, 50, 55 and 60 g Goex ffG with a .459 +/- .001" diameter, 404g +/- 1g hollow base bullet, .030mm over powder card wad. At 25 yards - 45 and 50g load - 5 rounds each all touching except initial cold bore flyer with 45g. 55g opened up a little - 60g - 5 rounds all touching with the tightest grouping. Will be steadily extending the distance over next few weeks.

Retreever
 
That’s about the same over powder wad I use as well.

Tbh I have not had the best of luck with the “carbine” loads in the 45-70 and I gave up on them, mostly because the Lyman 457125 shot so well in comparison.

65-68 grains of fffg seems to be the sweet spot I find with the rifle loads, with pan lubed bullets, I don’t even bother using a lubesizer for this cartridge anymore.
 
hickstick_10 said:
That’s about the same over powder wad I use as well.

Tbh I have not had the best of luck with the “carbine” loads in the 45-70 and I gave up on them, mostly because the Lyman 457125 shot so well in comparison.

65-68 grains of fffg seems to be the sweet spot I find with the rifle loads, with pan lubed bullets, I don’t even bother using a lubesizer for this cartridge anymore.
Click to expand...

Going to reload some more this week - will re-do the 60g and also add a 65g configuration. I'm using ffG rather than fffG Goex.

Retreever
 
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